Burch: One step forward ...

Thursday, June 21, 2012 at 9:05pm
By Michael R. Burch

It’s nice to see the Southern Baptist Convention, which is headquartered here in Nashville, take a tentative step into the 21st century by electing its first African-American president, the Rev. Fred Luter Jr.

However, this seems to be a case of  “one step forward, two steps back” because immediately after the SBC elected Luter, it issued two proclamations that suggest the Southern Baptist church is still firmly rooted in the Dark Ages. One resolution targets homosexuals for discrimination, while the second demonstrates the SBC’s intolerance for religions other than Christianity.

Ironically, black Southern Baptist pastors seem to be among the leaders of the movement to disenfranchise homosexuals by denying them fully equal rights. For instance, Dwight McKissic called it an “unfair comparison” for gays to demand the same rights as African-Americans. According to him, “They’re equating their skin with my skin.” But what happened to the proposition that all human beings are created equal, whether the differences are merely skin deep, or extend to brain cells and body chemistry? And if Jesus had homosexuals at the top of his priority list, as the SBC seems to believe, why did he never mention homosexuality himself, anywhere in the Bible?

The Southern Baptist church parted ways with its northern cousins over the issue of slavery, 167 years ago. Now the SBC seems to be parting ways with most of the modern world. In retrospect, conservative Christians of yore were obviously wrong about many things, including slavery, the need to burn women at the stake or drown them for being “witches,” the Earth being flat, etc. Isn’t it obvious that the same hidebound thinking that plagued Christianity in its dark past continues to plague some Christians today, resulting in bigotry and intolerance?

The SBC’s problems adjusting to modern times are also demonstrated by its resolution authorizing an optional name change for its churches. The SBC just approved, by a narrow vote of 2,446 to 2,232, a much-debated proposal that provides affiliated churches the option of describing themselves as “Great Commission Baptists.”

The great commission was for Christians to “go into the world and preach the gospel to all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.” The word “gospel” means “good news” or “glad tidings.” If the great commission was to spread the good news that Jesus opened the gates of heaven, and that he taught the need for compassion and justice in this life, few people would quibble with the great commission. However, what the Southern Baptists and other similar churches teach is not so positive. According to them, heaven is reserved for heterosexual Christians only, and everyone else goes to hell, which would seem to make the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit intolerant homophobes.

Jesus died around A.D. 30, and much of the world would remain undiscovered until 1492, so the “great commission” raises a perplexing question: What happened to all the people who lived and died not believing in Jesus, because they had never heard of him?

If people who never heard of Jesus died and woke up in a hell they knew nothing about, for not believing in someone they had never heard of, how could God be considered loving, wise or just?

Conversely, if only people who have heard of Jesus go to hell for not believing in him, then the worst possible thing anyone can possibly do is mention the name “Jesus” to anyone else, since the mere mention of his name flings wide the gates of hell.

Whether there is a God, or a heaven, is of course a matter of faith. But I have a hard time imagining a bigoted, intolerant heaven. I find it hard to believe that a compassionate man like Jesus would banish the saints of other religions to hell, while saving Christian slave owners and inquisitors who burned “heretics” and “witches” at the stake.

When so much remains in doubt, why not give the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit the benefit of the doubt?

Michael R. Burch is a Nashville-based editor and publisher of Holocaust poetry and other “things literary” at www.thehypertexts.com.

106 Comments on this post:

By: Mike Burch on 6/22/12 at 1:13

Budlight,

Anyone can quote Bible verses. When Americans wanted to own other people as slaves, they quoted Bible verses that "prove" that slavery is "the will of God."

Do you believe Christians should be able to own other people as slaves. Does a verse being in the Bible "prove" anything, other than the fact that some people would prefer for other people to tell them what to think, than to think for themselves?

There are verses in the Bible that say sex is sinful unless the sex is between one man married to one woman. But there are other verses that contradict that idea. For example, the Bible says that David was the man after God's own heart, and that David only disobeyed God in the matter of Uriah and Bathsheba. But David had multiple wives and concubines. The Bible says that Solomon was the wisest man who ever lived, but Solomon had hundreds of wives.

The Bible says it is shame for a man to have long hair, but the men consecrated to God (the Nazirites) never cut their hair .... for example, Samson and the prophet Samuel.

Did these obvious contradictions come from a perfect, all-wise, all-knowing God, or did they originate with human beings with very different ideas about sex, hair and race relations?

Yes, there are verses in the Bible that condemn homosexuality. There are also verses that command and condone slavery, matricide, infanticide, ethnic cleansing and genocide.

If primitive barbarians were wrong about such things being the "will of God," then obviously they could have been wrong about other things as well.

Mike

By: Mike Burch on 6/22/12 at 1:19

Yogi,

As the saying goes, "If you've got it, flaunt it." Why should heterosexuals be allowed to advertise what they've got, in public, and yet homosexuals should remain in the closet?

Few gays are running around naked, or having sex in public places. If they want to get married, that suggests they prefer to settle down and "do their thing" at home, like other married couples.

Comparing people who want to marry to whores is wildly unfair. If you ask a woman to marry you, is that a response to her acting like a whore, or you loving her so much that you want to spend the rest of your life with her? Sex is an important part of marriage, but far from the sum of marriage. The fact that many gays want to marry proves that they, too, are interested in more than just sex.

Mike

By: Loner on 6/22/12 at 1:19

The SBC has never repented of its original sins: They supported and embraced African Negro Slavery and the Great Secession ...the SBC gave the Confederate Constitution it's blessing...any black person who would accept the leadership of such a group must be an Uncle Tom.....akin to a Jew heading the Neo-Nazis.

This Reverend Luter has got his mind right, boss.....sorry, I have no respect for Luter or his filthy church.

The Southern Baptists can vote to delete the "Southern" part of their name, but a piece of crap is still a piece of crap, even if you call it by a new name.

When this group of born-again believers repent of their original sins and make some sort of restitution, then I will be open to changing my opinion....until then, forget about it.

By: jvh2b on 6/22/12 at 1:26

As far as I'm concerned there is no difference in man on man or man on woman action in public. It's all whoreish.

Just like you can't speak for all those white trash hoochies with their hind ends sticking out of some daisy dukes, I can't speak for the gays getting it on in public. I would imagine though it's a human thing getting excited about it being all the trill of getting caught/voyeuristic. That doesn't care about sexuality.

NOW...that being said I'm talking full blown get it on. Not holding hands or kissing. I see straight people do that all the time...and it's sweet (minus sucking face...get a room). And I don't know why so many heterosexuals get all eww over it. It's people holding hands...get over it.

If you meant something else, be more specific yogi.

By: jvh2b on 6/22/12 at 1:29

"The fact that many gays want to marry proves that they, too, are interested in more than just sex."

Bravo Mike - just bravo.

By: dargent7 on 6/22/12 at 1:46

As far as what the Bible says about homosexuality..I think there's a passage sayting, "No man shall lie with another..." I don't know if Jesus said it or Moses.

By: dargent7 on 6/22/12 at 1:53

Yogi: re: my name.
In 1959 the typewriters had an apostrophe, but no form used it.
My Social Security card uses a space.
Even today, in 2012, half my credit cards don't have an apostrophe.
My Tenn. Driver License doesn't use one.
This isn't France where d'Argent is as common as Smith or Jones.
But, your intellect and detective skills got me.
I'm an illegal alien faking I was born in Detroit.
Wait until you Birther's clammor for Romney's birth cert.
The hospital was burned down in the 1967 riots and all records were incinerated.
Any proof he has to document he was born in Detroit is a COPY, therefore inadmissable in court. Romney can't really prove he was born in Detroit.
You Birther's sure opened up a can of worms.
Live with it.

By: Loner on 6/22/12 at 1:57

Just because Rev. Luter is black, we should not draw the conclusion that he is not prejudiced or intolerant....polls indicate that most church-going blacks are not in favor of same sex marriage, for example.

Homophobia is probably just as strong in the black community as it is in the white community. That's probably also true in the largely Catholic Latino community.

When I see Rev. Luter marrying a gay couple in his church, then I'll be open to changing my opinion about the man and his church.

When I see Rev. Luter passing out condoms during a service, then I'll be open to changing my opinion about the man and his church.

When I see Rev. Luter criticizing the state-sponsored abortion mills in Israel, then I'll be open to changing my opinion about the man and his church.

By: slacker on 6/22/12 at 2:21

I'm not a religious person myself, but I have no quarrel with people who are. Its none of my business.
If you don't like a particular group, don't go there. Live and let live. My unasked for advice, is to associate with likeminded people... much less stress.

By: yogiman on 6/22/12 at 2:23

Well, dargent7,

I'm afraid you're in that can of worms. You've made the comment several times you was born in the same hospital Romney was born in. Was you lying, or could you just be asked by officials to verify that remark?

If it's true, are you an natural born citizen born with America parents, or was your father a Canadian at your time of birth? If you are, and then so is Romney because his parents were American citizens.

If your father was a Canadian citizen and your mother an American citizen, you was born with dual citizenship.

Sorry to disappoint you, dargent7.

By: BenDover on 6/22/12 at 2:24

Yep, Mike... bigotry, intolerance and homophobia. That's the founding charter of the Southern Baptists and central goal of the organization.

I don't really think I've ever heard anything more insulting and myopically moronic said about a group of people who someone just disagrees with. The simple fact is that you are intolerant of their value system and the ideals that they think best will serve our society.

Neither of us know how making tolerance the primary virtue of society is going to work out for us. If we look to Western Europe as an example where unchecked multiculturalism is the order of the day and they are shy to condemn anything short of bestiality as far as morality is concerned; we find a growing number of world leaders saying unchecked multiculturalism is a failure. Also the birth rates of indigenous Europeans do not even sustain the population and they are being out-bred by the Islamic immigrants 4 to 1.

Any reasonable person watching it and understanding the fate of a democracy in this situation might ask the question, "how's that workin' for ya'?". But the institutional left and their megaphone the media simply push us down the same path trying to remove every social or cultural road-block without regard to where those ideas originated; why those ideas have survived and what long-forgotten lessons may be built into the 'archaic values' that the smarter-than-everyone-else youth has been brainwashed to dismiss out of hand.

By: Loner on 6/22/12 at 2:50

If there is such a thing as "American Exceptionalism", it is because this nation was founded upon the idea of multiculturalism...you know, the "Melting Pot" idea. People from several cultures were assimilating into a new hybrid culture....the American culture. The nation had hybrid vigor.

Of course, the native American peoples and the African Negro slaves were not included in the original covenants; but for its day, the American experiment in secular governance and limited multiculturalism was quite a revolutionary idea.

It could also be argued that "multiculturalism" today implies that today's immigrants are not assimilating, but retaining their own ethnicity and rejecting the dominant culture....even undermining the dominant culture. If that is the current definition of the term, then who could be in favor of it?

It's a semantic thing, I suppose.....I certainly do not wish to be labelled as being, "anti-semantic".....I'm just throwing that out there.

By: Loner on 6/22/12 at 3:03

Here is a question for my good friend, Ben Dover.....but anyone can take a shot at it:

How come and why is it that when Muslims retain their cultural values in their new homelands, we object and get suspicious of their motives...but when a Jew refuses to assimilate into the country of his/her birth and makes aliyah to the Jewish state in Palestine we salute and applaud their refusal to assimilate into the culture of their birthplace?

The Amish and Mennonites are not assimilating into mainstream American culture...we do not impugn their motives.....why do we treat non-assimilating Muslims differently?

Could it be that the 9-11 attacks have soured this nation on the idea of multiculturalism in general? If so, then Bin Laden was more successful than he ever imagined.

Fighting hate with hate is the road to perdition....and we are on it.

By: slacker on 6/22/12 at 3:11

''anti-semantic'' best post of the day.

By: Loner on 6/22/12 at 3:20

Thank you, Slacker....there's a story behind that...my good friend, German-born Mattias was accused of being just that by a supporter of the Jewish state concept....he shared that with me and I thought that this was a good time to work it into my text.

Glad you appreciated the pun.

By: yogiman on 6/22/12 at 3:22

Loner,

I believe I go back a few years ahead of you, and I remember when every nation had a limited number of their citizens who could come to the USA and seek citizenship. That was the days before the airplanes and they all came by ship. They came in to Ellis Island in NY or Alcatraz Island in San Francisco CA bay. They had to go through a physical to make sure they weren't bringing any disease. If they didn't check out, they were made to go home. They had to live here for 7 years and take a citizenship test in English.

I've heard since, After the airplane became so usable just about anyone can come and live here only 5 years and take the test in any language. I guess that's why we have so many foreign language Americans today (good for a vote, you know). And they now seem to have the gate (border) open. To hell with becoming a citizen, we'll take care of you.

By: yogiman on 6/22/12 at 3:29

Loner,

I believe the difference in accepting the Muslim religion and the Jewish religion boils down to one reason, and please correct me if I'm wrong. The Jews don't believe in killing people because they aren't a Jew. The Muslims do. And as I understand, there is a scheme in people (like Barack Obama) that falsely claim to change their religion for a religious reason.

By: Loner on 6/22/12 at 3:30

Some pine for the "good old days"...before airplanes, when immigrants to America all came in by ship.....yeah, the African Negro slaves came in by ship and they had to pass some sort of physical too....Jimmy the Greek explained it all....Confederate Eugenics....or something like that.

By: slacker on 6/22/12 at 3:34

Loner, sadly the country is divided into 20% secularists, 70% religious cliques, 10% don't give s#%*. My numbers could be flawed. Polarization will be our downfall.

By: Loner on 6/22/12 at 3:35

Troll sez: "The Jews don't believe in killing people because they aren't a Jew. The Muslims do."

Uh...Muslims do believe in killing people because they aren't a Jew? Who knew?

The tin-foil is doing its thing...it's tin-foil Friday!

By: slacker on 6/22/12 at 3:44

A Muslim and a Jew walk into a bar... both order a Kamikaze..

By: budlight on 6/22/12 at 3:46

jvh2b on 6/22/12 at 12:48
Bud - I feel I speak for the entire gay community when I say - Blow it out of your god fearing a hole. Your entire argument is 'Well the Muslims would kill you, so you should be happy we just repress you, and deny basic privileges the rest of us enjoy!' Far from what the Jesus I've read about would advocate for.

I read your ugly comment to one of my gay friends (who does not advocate for gay marriage - not all gay people do) and that person said to mention to you that you are so ugly using that language.

Loner on 6/22/12 at 3:03
Here is a question for my good friend, Ben Dover.....but anyone can take a shot at it:

How come and why is it that when Muslims retain their cultural values in their new homelands, we object and get suspicious of their motives...but when a Jew refuses to assimilate into the country of his/her birth and makes aliyah to the Jewish state in Palestine we salute and applaud their refusal to assimilate into the culture of their birthplace?

The Amish and Mennonites are not assimilating into mainstream American culture...we do not impugn their motives.....why do we treat non-assimilating Muslims differently?

Loner, the Amish and Mennonites don't have an agenda to "kill" all infidels (chrisitans and others). The Muslims would kill Amish, Mennonites, blacks, whites, Jews, christians, babies, mothers, cousins, -- anyone they don't like and from the Koran, they don't like anything except Allah, Mohammed and Muslims -- as long as they think the way "they" think Sorry Loner, you need to smell the coffee. Shariah law is what they want to convert America to. For me, no thank you. If I want to wear a thong bikini in public and let it all hang out, it's my choice as long as I'm in an appropriate place to wear it. A Muslim woman would be stoned (oh buried up to her neck in the ground and stoned).

If I want to commit adultry, I can. Of course God would punish me, but no man could bury me up to my neck and stone me. Muslims are people too. It's their law - Shariah -- that is so gross and it's not a religion. It's a political, ideology that wants to rule the world. They are as bad as Hitler. Lying, deceiving, pretending to be your friend and then WHAM! You are dead!

I love it. The YouTube Grannie who was berated by the idiot kiddies is going to be a millionaire by next weeks. Oh such sweet poetic justice for those kids. She already forgave them. She's so sweet and they are so STUPID. If my kid did that to someone, I'd wear my kid's butt to a frazzle (as grannie layell used to say).

She's got over $400,000 in her account now! LOL LOL LOL Laughing all the way to the bank.

By: Mike Burch on 6/22/12 at 3:46

Loner,

I'm shocked to hear that you're one of those horrible anti-semantics!

That was a clever pun.

If the US had lived up to its stated ideal that all human beings are created equal, and have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, we could have avoided the Trail of Tears, slavery, the Civil War and the Palestinian Nakba, which led to 9-11 and two decade long wars that cost trillions of dollars and resolved nothing.

The Bible teaches people to believe that God favors Jews over Palestinians, masters over slaves, kings over serfs, and Christians over non-Christians. Many Americans have come to accept the Bible for what it really is: a book written by human beings with some good ideas, and many terrible ideas. But our nation is still being propelled recklessly toward WWIII by the true believers, who always support Israel despite its crimes against peace and humanity.

Now it seems the founding fathers threw off the yoke of mad King George so that Americans today could meekly take on the yoke of mad King Bibi.

Mike

By: BenDover on 6/22/12 at 3:48

Islam is a political movement dressed as a religion that is wholly inconsistent with our cultural, social and historical values, liberties and legal system loner. To the degree our constitution stands we have little to fear of Islam. To the degree people are successful in undermining our constitutional protections in favor of a democratic ideal we are in danger of that ideal itself perpetrating our demise.

It is part of the Islamic Caliphate. To ignore it is to ignore the example of the falling of western Europe and to also ignore common sense. All of those rioting 'youths' in France, Spain, Italy, etc are Muslim youths and others infected with the mindset that intends to destroy the west using our own western values, compassion and generosity... and then to impose their values of control, contempt and intolerance.

The libs waving their white flags and wearing their rainbow tie dye will be quite surprised as they complete the installation of their supreme value of 'tolerance over all else' into society... as they will be first against the wall in a new order of Islam.

By: budlight on 6/22/12 at 3:54

You are right Yogi. Islamists do not want anyone on the planet to live except Islamists. And Islamists are Muslims, right Loner. I think you misunderstood what Yogi was saying.

Oh, that's right. YOU are the only intelligent being left on the planet.

Mike, why don't you write about the bus grannie and her hitting the lottery when the dumbo kids harrassed her? Poetic Justice. I hope by this time next week, she's a bonafide millionaire. I hope she gets a tv show! a medal of honor.

HEY, I just noticed something. BIG MOUTH OBAMA did not step in defend her. He should have sent the national guard out by now to round up those roudy boys. OH, that's right. She's WHITE. If she would have been black, it would have pulled OBAMA the drama queen to the front of the news and he'd have the world focussed on her instead of his high black unemployment and misuse of the constitution.

YEP, that white lady ain't worth his trouble and the only kid I could see in the YouTube was a minority, so that was OK if a minority kid was bullying a 68-year old white grannie (guess she musta deserved it). I'm so happy that the people all over the world are sending her money. Poetic Justice for her!

By: Loner on 6/22/12 at 3:55

I think your anecdotal stats are probably about right, Slack. There are no registered atheists in the US Congress. The 70% have 100% of the power.

Sadly, we really are a Christian nation...make that Judeo-Christian...mustn't forget the required hyphenation....this is Holy War....The Judeo-Christians versus The Islamists....the faith-based combatants in the Great Theocratic Wars of the 20th & 21st Centuries....the scab has been picked, blood is flowing from the old wound.....and we all thought that the Great Crusades were over.....you gotta wonder, how in the hell did this happen?

By: Loner on 6/22/12 at 3:59

By: slacker on 6/22/12 at 3:44....."A Muslim and a Jew walk into a bar... both order a Kamikaze.."

LOL.

Snippet:

Kamikaze Drink Recipe:

1 oz. Triple Sec (Cointreau)
1 oz. Vodka
1 oz. Lime Juice
1 wedge Lime

Mixing Instructions;

Shake ingredients in a cocktail shaker with ice. Strain into a cocktail glass. Garnish with a lime wedge and a stir stick.

Source:
http://www.drinknation.com/drink/kamikaze

By: Mike Burch on 6/22/12 at 4:00

Everyone,

The idea that Islam or Muslims in general want to kill "infidels" is beyond silly. Yes, there are some extremists who kill non-Muslims. Here in the US, we once had members of the KKK who killed people while claiming to be Christians. But such people are a tiny minority. Most Muslims, like most Christians, have no interest in killing anyone, and would only do so in self defense.

The Bible says, in the book of Revelation, that Jesus Christ and the angels will return to earth to destroy trillions of animals and billions of human beings, in inexplicable orgies of global genocide. But most American Christians are not going to kill anyone just because the writer of Revelation thought God, Jesus and the Angels were going to become mass murderers.

There are still Jews and synagogues in Iran, and throughout the Muslim world. Albert Einstein, perhaps the greatest Jewish intellectual of all time, pointed out in his writings about Israel, Palestine and Zionism that the Arabs had -- on the whole -- treated Jews much better than European and Russian Christians had.

Islamic extremism against the US has little to do with religion, and a lot to do with the horrors the US and Israel have inflicted on the Palestinians, and the US government's evil actions in the Middle East, such as the 1953 coup of Iran, engineered by the CIA over oil rights.

The US government does not want to admit the real reasons for terrorist attacks against the US, so it claims we are being attacked over religion and because people hate our "values." Anyone who believes such BS may be interested in some lovely swampland I am willing to let go for a princely sum.

Mike

By: budlight on 6/22/12 at 4:00

Ben, you are so correct. But remember one thing. Liberals don't speak the same language that you and those of your understanding speak. They do not know what you are saying. They will have to learn the hard way.

By the way, one more time: YouTube Grannie is so awesome - on her way to being a Millionaire and didn't even have to buy a lottery ticket! Yippppeeeee!

By: yogiman on 6/22/12 at 4:06

My apology, Loner,

I meant the Muslims not only believe in killing the Jews because they aren't Muslims. I meant they believe in killing anyone that isn't a Muslim by their Muslim beliefs..

Again, I apologize. I thought you would interpret that remark better.

By: Loner on 6/22/12 at 4:07

Keeping it rolling...."A Muslim and a Jew walk into a bar... both order a Kamikaze....The Japanese-American bartender says, "What the f*ck...are you two @ssholes trying to be funny or what?"

By: slacker on 6/22/12 at 4:09

Burch, goggle Muslims rioting in Europe.

By: Loner on 6/22/12 at 4:15

Mike, glad you liked the pun.... I would argue that the hyphen connecting Judeo with Christian is perhaps the most dangerous punctuation mark in Western history....any comment on that?

By: yogiman on 6/22/12 at 4:15

I believe those slaves had been brought into this nation a 'couple' of years earlier than the foreigners, Loner. And you can bet your a$$ the boats they were brought here on weren't passenger ships.

I believe I agree with you on your anti-slavery opinion. It should never have been. It was a mistake our founders made and we are still paying for it.

But where did they come from? According to my old history books they originally came from other black "tribes" that captured them and sold them to black and white people.

But I think you should remember, it was Republicans that freed the slaves, not the Democrats that fought to keep them.

By: slacker on 6/22/12 at 4:15

Japanese guy walks into a bar.. orders a Hairy Armpit...

By: jvh2b on 6/22/12 at 4:21

I think I just peed myself laughing....bud wants us to believe she has a gay friend (one apparently so self loathing they don't think they should be able to get hitched AND so loathing they are friends with bud......)

And to boot the best retaliation you have is that's bad language I used. Well you can tell him bud that no matter how often he spanks his a$ with the bible it still don't make him a better gay.

Oh yeah and it still doesn't change the fact you think we should shut up and live with discrimination bc you aren't trying to kill us....

By: Mike Burch on 6/22/12 at 4:24

BenDover,

I think your irrational "blonde roots" are showing ...

You said, "To the degree people are successful in undermining our constitutional protections in favor of a democratic ideal we are in danger of that ideal itself perpetrating our demise."

But the constitution is based on a democratic ideal called "We the people." The purpose of constitutional protections is not to protect the system, but the people. And not just some of the people, but ALL the law-abiding people. What conservative hawks like GWB, Cheny and Rumsfeld try to do is use fear to persuade the American people to give them the power to gain even more power. The oil fields of the Middle East represent enormous money and power, so the hawks try to convince gullible people that the people of a Muslim region of the earth are "dangerous" so that they can start wars and take control of the region.

You said the "Islamic Caliphate" intends to "destroy the west using our own western values, compassion and generosity... and then to impose their values of control, contempt and intolerance." But the main source of friction between the West and Islam centers around the Palestinian people, who have not been shown any compassion or generosity by the US and Israel. Rather, Israel destroyed hundreds of Palestinian villages in 1948, leaving millions of people homeless, destitute refugees today.

Then the US engineered a coup of the first democratically-elected government in the Muslim world, when Kermit Roosevelt engineered a CIA coup of Iran in 1953. That led to the rise of the Ayatollah Khomeini and the current regime.

So the "good" and "compassionate" Christians you fantasize about have nothing to do with the reality of the Middle East. Yes, here are home there are many good, hardworking, compassionate Christians. But their government has seldom reflected those values in the Middle East, toward Muslims. If Jesus was a Muslim, our government would be scheming to brush him aside in its lust for oil and power.

This is how many Muslims view the US, and it's hard to say they are wrong.

Mike

By: Mike Burch on 6/22/12 at 4:33

Loner,

My friend the poet/philosopher/mathematician Richard Moore used to call Americans "children of the book." He was an atheist who took a dim view of religion. He sympathized with the plight of the Palestinians, and I think he might agree with you that the hyphen in Judeo-Christian may prove to be very dangerous indeed.

I think the 411 to 2 vote on HR4133 suggests that King Bibi has ascended to the throne of Congress and now controls the fate of the Middle East, which may well be the fate of the world.

American politicians rise and applaud when King Bibi speaks. Mitt Romney says that he will not express an opinion about the Palestinians without Bibi telling him what to say.

It seems the people of the book have truly become one, and will now go rushing arm-in-arm toward Arm-ageddon in the Middle East (emphasis on military arms).

And of course once again it will be the "good Christians" who start the Holy War.

Mike

By: yogiman on 6/22/12 at 4:36

Agreed, Mike,

The Muslim faith is the only one I can think of right now that feels you show die if you don't belong to their faith.

The Muslim faith is just one among many and there is many Muslims that are honest, law abiding citizens who have no desire to force anyone to come into their faith. But you don't know them, do you?

So it's easier to accept other religions because you know they don't think you should die because you don't belong to their faith.

So the Muslim faith then is, "One Among Many" and shouldn't you want to know they might want to kill you... unless you don't care.

By: Mike Burch on 6/22/12 at 4:54

Yogi,

I know MANY, MANY Muslims. Most of the Muslims I know believe in compassion and good works, not killing. It is true that many Muslims are very angry with the US, and they have many reasons to be angry with what the US has done in the Middle East. But that doesn't mean they want to kill Americans. They just wish Americans would open their eyes and see what the US government and Israel are doing.

I oppose what Hitler did. That doesn't mean that I hate or want to kill Germans.

I oppose what Stalin did. That doesn't mean that I hate or want to kill Russians.

Many Muslims oppose the US government. That doesn't mean that they hate or want to kill Americans.

The extremists who do attack the US are like Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse. Why did Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse go to the warpath? Were they men full of irrational hatred, or did they see their women and children suffering and dying, and act to protect them?

Americans have always been fed lies about anyone who opposes the US government. Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse and John Brown were called terrorists. But they were driven to extreme acts by the extreme injustices of the US government.

If you study American history, then study the real history of the Middle East, it is easy to understand that what happened in the past is happening again.

Mike

By: Mike Burch on 6/22/12 at 5:02

Slacker,

Google HR4133 and think for a few seconds, and you will understand why there is so much Muslim antipathy for the government of the US.

The US has provided Israel with billions of dollars, which is has used to create apartheid walls twice as high as the Berlin Wall, and segregated roads and settlements in the West Bank, where it continues to steal Palestinian land and water, leaving them faced with eventual extinction.

Now Israel, which has hundreds of nukes and is impervious to any invasion, has now been given a blank check to attack Iran.

How would you feel, if the most powerful nation on earth kept giving billions of dollars and advanced weapons to someone who was intent on stealing your land, house, water, rights and freedom?

Of course much of the unrest in Europe has to do with living conditions in Europe. But the friction between the US and the Muslim world has almost entirely to do with our government's racist, evil actions in the Middle East.

Mike

By: yogiman on 6/22/12 at 5:14

Mike,

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but looking at my map I see Israel as a very small nation surrounded by nations that HATE THEIR GUTS.

Now, I don't know about you, but If I was in that position I would do my best to find a friend I could believe would help me if I was attacked.

That is the only reason today Israel is still on the map. Am I to presume I should understand why are you and some of your fellow posters on this site are siding with her neighbors?

By: yogiman on 6/22/12 at 5:18

Sorry, Mike, I should have stated "hate HER (Israel's) guts.

By: slacker on 6/22/12 at 5:38

Burch, I guess you're saying.. the U.S. has a nice, well-behaved group of Muslims re-locating here, and Europe has the rowdies. Yes the U.S. props up, and will defend Israel.
And yes its related to the bible-thumpers that send the politicians to Washington. You and I both know thats not going to change anytime soon. Look at the guy you're going to vote for in Nov. he's carrying on the policy, as of course Romney will if he wins.

I believe the Muslims sense the weakness created by the polarization in this country, and intend to take advantage of it. Thats just my opinion. And I also believe the Southern/Northern/Western Baptists treat their women much better than Islam..But I don't have any skin in the religious game.

By: BenDover on 6/22/12 at 5:39

Mike, again, you don't know what you are talking about, on two fronts.

First we are a representative constitutional republic of democratic states. The founders knew well the dangers of outright democracy and went to great efforts to protect the people from it with the constitution... sadly most people today do not know or even understand the importance..

Second I'm not talking about the growing minority of Muslims who want to kill us I'm talking about the vast majority of Muslims who see our liberties as in-congruent with their beliefs and believe it to be their duty in any way possible, though force, lying, and particularly using our own democratic systems and sympathies to honor Allah and Muhammad by sweeping the earth with their enlightenment and oppression.

Our Western culture largely put this mentality behind us in the past few centuries but all that really matters is that there is an assault and it's being fostered by a ton of useful idiots supposedly on our own team.

By: Mike Burch on 6/23/12 at 2:44

Yogi,

You might consider reading the book, "Children of the Jihad." it was written by a young Jewish-American man who traveled through the Middle East, asking Muslims what they really think. It turns out most of them don't hate Jews or Americans, They do, however, greatly dislike the terrible things done in the Middle East by the governments of Israel and the US.

If you took the time to study the real facts and the real history of the Middle East, you would understand why.

Mike

By: Mike Burch on 6/23/12 at 2:50

Slacker,

There is a considerable difference between President Obama and Mitt Romney. If you study what they have said about Israel, you will see that President Obama has opposed the expansion of settlements in the West Bank, while Romney said that he would not express an idea about the Palestinians without asking his lord and master King Bibi what to say first.

The idea that a tiny percentage of the population "intend to take advantage of" the majority sounds irrational and paranoid to me.

Yes, American men treat American women reasonably well. But how do they treat Palestinian women, Iraqi women and Afghani women?

Mike

By: yogiman on 6/23/12 at 6:52

Mike,

There is two things an American voter should think about when going to the polls this November.

The main one: Barack Hussein Obama is in that office illegally. If he wasn't, even his ego would not stop him from proving his eligibility. He won't, because he can't.

Second: The Israel situation is only one issue that will concern our next president and considering his past business experience, I don't think Mitt Romney (if he becomes President) will consider it his major concern.

It will be great to get back into the "old times" and have many new congressmen who will have a man in our our White House in accordance to our Constitution.

By: BenDover on 6/23/12 at 9:12

http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3ptx0y/

By: yogiman on 6/23/12 at 10:28

Which meme did you pick for me, BenDover?