Up for Debate: Holder on the hot seat

Wednesday, June 20, 2012 at 10:05pm

News came Wednesday that a U.S. House committee recommended in a partisan vote to hold Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt of Congress for not providing certain documents regarding the botched "Fast and Furious" weapons trafficking sting operation. The full House is expected to vote on the issue next week. Do you agree with the move to take such action against Holder? What you do think of President Obama's assertion of executive privilege over the files?

139 Comments on this post:

By: BenDover on 6/21/12 at 8:49

This isn't 'all of the sudden' dargent. I've been following it for years.

By: Loner on 6/21/12 at 8:50

Moonglow is on a roll!

Amen, Brother Moonglow.

And Brother Rasputin is still disputin'....he's an arm-chair general in the war between the classes....thinks the masses are asses. Prefers Grey Poupon to molasses.

And Brother Ben Dover is bending the facts, over & over again. Bless the loyal Bushite's heart.

Kosh is correct and Darge is spot on, once again.

Now, if only Bfra, Nemo, Slacker and House would come online.....the gang would all be here.

But where are the other right-wingers? Asleep under the porch?

By: yogiman on 6/21/12 at 8:50


It shouldn't take too long to figure it out, how many honest politicians do you know? It might work down to a couple of the fingers on one hand.

By: gdiafante on 6/21/12 at 8:54

Rasp, pay attention. I never said the founders weren't aristocrats, I said they intended America to be non-aristocratic. When the middle class prospered, America prospered.

I also agree that we may never see the middle class as it was. It's been systematically destroyed by bad policies. Yes, from both parties.

Where we disagree is how to fix it. I believe a lot of the problem is how we've failed to adjust to globalization. This is why it's absurd to blame one person, or party, for what has become a global crisis. And when everyone is hell-bent on blaming someone instead of coming together to find a solution, you have what we have now, which is a country in decline.

By: BenDover on 6/21/12 at 8:55

Glenn Reynolds has been on it like a tick on a hound.


As I've said before if you're not reading instapundit you're only reading 1/2 the story.

By: Loner on 6/21/12 at 8:58

Both Wide receiver and Fast & Furious were failures of the Bush era's War on Drugs.

Obama should have come through on his hope & change pledge vis-a-vis the War on Drugs...his failure to do so may now cost him the election, if this scandal is not quickly stanched.

Obama reneged on his promises, now he is paying the price.

But the alternative...Rat Boy and La Cucaracha...is even more frightening.

We're screwed.

By: BenDover on 6/21/12 at 9:02

No loner. The Bush era program had the notable distinction of actually trying to track the weapons and coordinating the sting with the Mexican government.

The Obama era program simply shipped guns to the Cartels.

By: Rasputin72 on 6/21/12 at 9:05

GDIAFANTE........I do not know how to fix it. All my life personally and as a business person my forte has been preventing problems and disasters. My solutions to problems usually winds up successful but with a lot of dead bodies laying around.

I am right now trying to decide whether or not the country is in decline or returning to world wide normalcy. Most countries in the world are have and have not countries. What I do know about this country is that the expectations of the citizenry on all fronts are not aligned with the reality of this countrys circumstances.

By: Loner on 6/21/12 at 9:06

Speaking of the VP concept...isn't it odd that in a secular democracy, a Constitutional republic like ours, that the person who will be a heart beat away from the Presidency is the choice of one person alone, the Presidential Nominee? That's totally undemocratic by nature, yet we Americans never complain about that tragic flaw.

Yeah, I know about the early problems with the split ticket idea, in which the Pres and Veep candidates were not on a united ticket....but the remedy chosen is absolutely undemocratic, isn't it?

The major political parties hammered out that "remedy", We the people gave away half the farm on that one....there has to be a better way.

By: yogiman on 6/21/12 at 9:06

You know, BenDover,

In view of the fact Republicans ended slavery in the US and gave the slaves their freedom by fighting a war with the Democrats who opposed to freeing the slaves, I'm just wondering: Why are so many black Americans (by vast majority) in such favor of the Democratic party?

Doesn't make sense to me. How did the Democrats sucker them into their party after after they lost the Civil War?

By: Rasputin72 on 6/21/12 at 9:10

YOGI.....I think there are two classes of blacks. One class has a value system matching that of most humans and Americans. The other chooses to be democrats because that is where the "free stuff" comes from.

By: Loner on 6/21/12 at 9:13

As a refresher:

From Wikipedia:

The Twelfth Amendment (Amendment XII) to the United States Constitution provides the procedure for electing the President and Vice President. It replaced Article II, Section 1, Clause 3, which provided the original procedure by which the Electoral College functioned. Problems with the original procedure arose in the elections of 1796 and 1800. The Twelfth Amendment was proposed by the Congress on December 9, 1803, and was ratified by the required number of state legislatures on June 15, 1804.

The cure may have been worse than the disease?

By: gdiafante on 6/21/12 at 9:13

Rasp, I agree. U.S. citizens are spoiled. This is why, in a time of economic contraction, no one really wanted to change their habits. Of course, the irony is that when they finally did (started saving rather than blindly spending), it only hurt things.

I still believe that the housing bubble, which really hasn't been dealt with, is the biggest problem we have right now. If people can't pull equity out of their homes, with stagnant wages and increasing costs, how can they spend without raising their debt levels to unsustainable levels?

Sound familiar?

The interesting dichotomy of a debt-based economy.

By: Loner on 6/21/12 at 9:17

And now, a lesson in socio-economic theory from a Grey Poupon-stained ethnologist::

By: Rasputin72 on 6/21/12 at 10:10

YOGI.....I think there are two classes of blacks. One class has a value system matching that of most humans and Americans. The other chooses to be democrats because that is where the "free stuff" comes from.

Take notes...there will be a test.

By: gdiafante on 6/21/12 at 9:19

Just when I think Raspy is being rational...

Note to Rasp: you don't have to be a specific color to want a handout. Nor do you have to be in a specific socio-economic class.

By: Moonglow1 on 6/21/12 at 9:21

Moonglow1: You are correct Loner-I am on a roll and sick sick sick of the sicko ALEC tea nuts who are now running our country. They are re-writing history, sucking up all of our money, and turning the USA into a country of slaves-Yes, you got it, previously middle class white guys who will be destined to provide slave labor for the new gilded age people like Issa and the Kochs.

Read this and weep for the Unitied States is no more.


Excerpts from the book review-link above:
Schweizer exhaustively and frighteningly details how members of Congress have exempted themselves from insider-trading rules, smoothed the way for Wall Street donors, and earmarked themselves competitive advantages that have brought them windfalls they would have otherwise never seen. Schweizer reminds readers that the method is not novel at all -- it is straight from the playbook of New York City's Tammany Hall impresario George Washington Plunkitt, who coined the phrase "honest graft" and made it a way of life. Plunkitt, not Jefferson, is the standard in Congress in the early 21st century.

So folks the capitalism you so love and so talk about daily in this post is not alive and well. The deck is stacked. You want to make money, run for Congress and get into the club.

We need term limits so these jokers can get a real job.

And, Jamie Dimon, the so called guru of finance, gets $12 billion from your tax money as a subsidy.

So no, we do not have a captialistic economy.

What does this have to do with the border: everything. It's the money idiots!!!!

Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/12/review_throw_them_all_out_by_peter_schweizer.html#ixzz1yRQu0u1s

By: Rasputin72 on 6/21/12 at 9:24

gdiafante........I could not agree with you more. An excellent observation and opinion.

This point that you so validly make makes the "moves" by Bernanke to be in support only of the financial markets and does nothing for the people who move the economy. How does one restore the economy by overlooking what every corporation in America and every small business is searching for? The search is for profitable sales and I see nothing being done that would do that. When sales expand wages and hiring expands. Cutting the interest rate from 3% for borrowers to 2 and 1/2% certainly is not an incentive for me to borrow money that has no ROI.

On the other hand if the big picture financial markets and Wall Street fails then there is no recovery....Very heady stuff and if the truth be known Bernanke is as perplexed as you and I.

By: Rasputin72 on 6/21/12 at 9:31

gdiafante.....I agree that you do not have to be a specific color to want "free stuff" I was only trying to point out to YOGI why blacks appear to be democrats by a wide margin.

If I am correct and I think I am one class of blacks has a majority edge over the other class of blacks. Then again I live in the south and only see what I see.

By: Loner on 6/21/12 at 9:32

According to Rasponomics, fifty percent of American blacks are less human and more un-American than the other half.....no credible studies were offered to substantiate the claim....it's a faith-based thing.

And Moonglow is working hard...digging up the dirt....I appreciate the efforts. Yeah, Issa is as dirty a politician as they get...inexplicable enrichment is his claim to fame. Issa reminds me of Blago.....the mobster politician with good hair.

By: Rasputin72 on 6/21/12 at 9:37

LONER.........I would change your assesment of RASPONOMICS to a more academic version. "A large portion of blacks have a culture that is detrimental to themselves as well as the people they come in contact.

By: slacker on 6/21/12 at 9:42

Loner your vote for President, indicates your trust in your candidates judgement in picking a running mate. We coulda had Joe Biden or Nancy Pelosi succeed as President, scary..eh?. Vote ''Mittens'' the thoughtful candidate, with magic in his underwear. Mitt will at least pick someone who will help him carry a state..(intelligence) No ''fast and furious'' cover-ups with the ''Mitt.'' Tablets will be found and the truth revealed.

By: BenDover on 6/21/12 at 9:43

Nice Mark Twain quote from my Facebook link this morning. It would seem to be an excellent motto for our discussions here on this forum.

"Oh, dear, we are all like that. Each of us knows it all, and knows he knows it all--the rest, to a man, are fools and deluded. One man knows there is a hell, the next one knows there isn't; one man knows high tariff is right, the next man knows it isn't; one man knows monarchy is best, the next one knows it isn't; one age knows there are witches, the next one knows there aren't; one sect knows its religion is the only true one, there are sixty-four thousand five hundred million sects that know it isn't so."

By: Moonglow1 on 6/21/12 at 9:45

Moonglow1: Loner, what about Boehner and Cunningham, and the religious nuts whose names I cannot recall that cry and cry - the tears flowing when they are caught with hands in the cookie jar or elsewhere.

These policiticans are crazy and way crazy on the repub side, the new deal repubs, wheeling and dealing.

Dealing your money for themselves.

Issa needs to be kicked out on his @ss, and that Paul Ryan, another sleeze ball.

By: Rasputin72 on 6/21/12 at 9:49

BEN DOVER........It would be hard to argue with a Mark Twain comment so accurate.

By: gdiafante on 6/21/12 at 9:50

Twain certainly thought he knew it all...his mustache knew secrets that would make Chuck Norris blush.

By: BenDover on 6/21/12 at 9:51

But much of that is due to our criminalization of their culture, Raspy. Though I certainly agree that having 1/2 the political energy in this country expended on class divisiveness to emphasizing that things are not fair rather than the fact that most everyone can and should persevere over the unfairness; is very destructive to society at large and to the dis-assured victim in particular.

By: govskeptic on 6/21/12 at 9:55

Speaking of the V.-Pres. The funniest thing all week was the President stated
in some speech that Joe Biden was a "blue-collar guy"! That has always
been my impression and I'm sure others as well. Apparently that was quite
the insult to ole Joe, so in one of his speeches he refutes that with a hilarious
rant that sounds like neither he, his father or grandfather never worked a blue
collar day in their lives! Don't have a reference, but sure one can find it via
goggle-worth the effort!

By: gdiafante on 6/21/12 at 9:56

emphasizing that things are not fair rather than the fact that most everyone can and should persevere over the unfairness

Right...and you wonder why your side is viewed as out of touch.

Yes kiddies, the fix is in, but get over it.

By: slacker on 6/21/12 at 9:57

I know Joe Biden. Joe Biden is no Mark Twain.

By: slacker on 6/21/12 at 10:09

Its rumored that Twain plagiarized Frances Bacon.

By: BenDover on 6/21/12 at 10:10

I was blessed in that my father taught me I could do anything if I set my mind to it.

My daughter's baby-daddy was taught that there's no sense in trying because the world is unfair... so he did poorly in school - later dropping out and, to really reinforce the point, he was locked up on a probation violation on a stupid simple possession charge; just because he and his family didn't have any money to pay the fines and PO fees.

In truth, in my life, I had a 5 - 10 year head start on this young man due simply to the benefits of a better attitude and perspective -- with his detriment compounded by a cultural certainty of a run in with our injustice system... a non-value-added municipal fiefdom that exists, anymore, mainly to get paid.

It is true that the system is unfair and needs to be reformed. It is also true that the black community... in particular young black men... needs a new prevailing attitude.

By: Loner on 6/21/12 at 10:17

And Ben Dover is bringing home the Bacon.

By: BenDover on 6/21/12 at 10:17

BenDover for Nashville!

By: Loner on 6/21/12 at 10:18

Go Ben, go.

By: yogiman on 6/21/12 at 10:20


I'm afraid I go back further in history actually living through much more of it than most of the "children" on this site. During the years of segregation after the Civil War, the black people didn't have much of a chance for self preservation. So many of them had to plain steal to feed their families. There was an old saying back then; "There's a ****** in the wood pile" because they simply couldn't personally provide for their families and had to find wood to take care of their families.

Credit where credit is due, LBJ got the segregation bill passed in 1964 (or 1965) because it was thought the black Americans were shifting to the Republican party. LBJ was a known racist and I always thought he got that bill passed to "buy" the votes of the black Americans.

Not long after the segregation bill was passed, many black Americans began calling themselves Afro-Americans. After a few years they changed it to Afra-Americans. After a few more years it became African-Americans.

I believe now you will find the African Americans of today the ones on the welfare programs. The ones who began getting an education and building a chance to live a decent life became plain old Americans.

But I'm afraid the is more racism today than has been in quite a few years. I was hoping it was over.

By: Loner on 6/21/12 at 10:22

Moonglow, here is the poop on Issa:


The million-dollar plus figure is just for the past two years and does not include other sources. Check the link.

By: slacker on 6/21/12 at 10:22

Ben has ''set his mind'' to run. That means he can do anything, or something or the other.
Vote Ben

By: jvh2b on 6/21/12 at 10:27

Ben - I normally appreciate the fact you don't normally partake of the kool-aid...today however you have swallowed the whole glass.

'In the worst case it originated with a political motivation of creating a crisis that would advance a gun control agenda.'

Yes, please do identify Obama's extensive list of proposed/submitted/passed gun control legislation/executive orders. Good news is that task should take you less than 30 seconds to compile.

Colbert handled this issue very well last night...might wanna Hulu it or whatnot...that man is brilliant.

By: Loner on 6/21/12 at 10:28

Yeah, Rasp, and I bet that your family called Brazil nuts something along those same lines.....did your family hunt up on Niggerhead Mountain with the Perry family?

The smell of gunpowder & Grey Poupon in the morning must have been orgasmic.

Negro cooks and waiters catered to your every whim back then, right? And the entertainment-type Negroes came in through the kitchen door, not the front door.

By: Loner on 6/21/12 at 10:39

JVH is right. All agree that the idea was a foolish one and was counter-productive to the max. No arguments there.

But one must don the tin-foil helmet and tune in, in order to see this as a deliberate attempt to promote gun control legislation in the USA....now that is one goofy conspiracy theory....and Ben Dover is peddling the idea.

The idea that Americans would demand more gun control because Mexicans were being killed with guns purchased in the USA is quite ridiculous to begin with. Thousands of people are killed around the world every year with US-made guns. ...no biggie.

Why and how would the fact that Mexican drug gangs are using US-made guns serve to advance the alleged gun-control agenda?

No, this F&F SNAFU was not a conspiracy to strip Ben Dover and his ilk of their guns....to allege so is quite foolish, IMO.

By: BenDover on 6/21/12 at 10:40

jhv... Why send 2500+ assault rifles and other munitions to the Mexican cartels with no intention of tracking them and without coordinating with or even notifying the Mexican government?

Give me a good reason.

Holder has said the public needs to be 'brainwashed' on the gun issue before. Rahm Emanuel is noted for having said, "you never want a serious crisis to go to waste". Who is to say the "Chicago Way" might not involve creating the crisis you desire?

It could just be a total screw up. Or it could be a bunch of self-worshiping egg-headed liberal academics going full Machiavelli to achieve the end they know is best against the wishes of an ignorant and less refined populace.

By: pswindle on 6/21/12 at 10:41

Are you talking about Bush's wars? Are you talking about the program that Bush started over guns in Mexico?

By: jvh2b on 6/21/12 at 10:51

Well considering the serious lack of proof (ie polices/legislation etc) for the gun control theory (not to mention Loner's excellent point of somehow a few more gun deaths is going to sway the public opinion on gun control being just stupid...) I'm gonna have to go with sheer stupidity/lack of oversight on this one.

If I am to believe a conspiracy theory it would be the Bush set up the next admin one. Republicans play reallllly dirty like that (and YES so do Dems...both parties clearly only have their own interests in mind).

But yeah, bottom line is there isn't any gun control legislation proposed or pending or going through in order to support this assumption. Normally I find you to be much more rational that this....but hey we are all allowed off days ;)

By: slacker on 6/21/12 at 10:53

Ben, if the guns were released to gangs in the U.S., that might be a plausible theory.
But in Mexico? It was just a stupid idea gone bad, and as usual a cover-up. Both sides keep doing it. Accept the fact, this country's screwed.

By: budlight on 6/21/12 at 10:54

Hey, how about some positive spin? That lady who is the bus monitor on YouTube! Those stupid, ignorant, disrespectful kids on the bus are going to make her a few bucks for her trouble. So far one website says its $124,000 raised and another is over $180,000.

Bingo. She gets the last laugh. Their stupidity make make her a millionaire - or close. She's laughing all the way to the bank and I don't blame her. They need to be harshly disciplined for talking to her that way.

Glad someone filmed that nightmare. Hope the law gets involved and they get punished by the law, the school and their parents.

OK, have a great day. Going to computer school now.

By: BenDover on 6/21/12 at 10:56

pswindle, Do you realize what a tool you are for echoing that White House spin and distraction?

Hundreds of people are dead in what can best be described as a colossal mistake by our government and the President has exercised Executive privilege to cover it up.

Is your caboose so blindly hitched to that train that you can't see a simple matter of right and wrong.

All hell broke loose when Bush tried to use executive privilege to keep private the internal decisions to fire a handful of his US Attorneys. Hell... Clinton fired them all when he came into office without a whimper but Bush's use of Executive Privilege during the Pelosi witch hunt was head-line news every night for a month.

But this thing has been going on for 2 years now and most of you are just now hearing about it... and you are willing to dismiss it along with all the loss of life because its mostly white republicans investigating some black democrats. Astounding.

By: dargent7 on 6/21/12 at 10:57

Let me define, "All of a sudden", for you:
9/11 happens, and Bush proclaims, We hear you, we see you, and they'll hear from us soon...".Sends 5 aircraft carriers to Iraq, seeking vengence.
Even though, a retard in 5th grade, could tell you Iraq was 100% exonerated in the attacks. 90% were Saudi's. Including bin Laden.
Not a peep from Republicans about, "Well, maybe, Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11"?
Just get justice, come hell or high water.
Obama is Inagurated on Jan 20, 2009, and the Townies, Birther's all spring up like tulips in the spring. Right on cue.

By: yogiman on 6/21/12 at 11:00


As I understand it, the "handout" of guns to the Mexican cartels was to use it as a "reason" to gain gun control. The fact was, they couldn't even keep tract of them when they released across the border.

I understand he, with Clinton, are working with the UN to get gun control. I hope the people let them know they aren't wiping our a$$es with our constitution.

By: BenDover on 6/21/12 at 11:03

That's the spin the Obama Administration is trying to get away with Slack but the botched sting operation under Bush's term (operated out of the local ATF office) involved tracking the guns and coordinating the effort with the Mexican government. The program was canceled with a final note on the program being 'never again'.

Fast and Furious simply shipped the cartels guns with no way to track them and without consent of the Mexican government... and now Obama is hiding behind executive privilege to keep us from knowing who authorized it. It was funded by $10M from the stimulus package under the homeland security department and the justice department.

By: slacker on 6/21/12 at 11:09

Homeland Security makes ''Big Sis'' susceptible to being thrown under the bus.
But that will piss off the gals. Obama will stonewall until after the election.