Up for Debate: Outrage over Trayvon Martin killing

Thursday, March 22, 2012 at 12:08am

What's your take on the national outrage sparked by the Feb. 26 shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin of Florida? How should have the police in Sanford, Fla., handled the case? What can be learned from his death?

 

Filed under: City Voices
Tagged: Up for Debate

91 Comments on this post:

By: brrrrk on 3/22/12 at 10:08

Loner said

""Cripple" may be too strong a term, if it means to permanently disable...the bounties were paid if the hit resulted in a player being removed from the game, as I understand it...the goal was temporary crippling, I suppose....that's not very mitigating, is it?"

The best solution I heard to this problem actually came from a college football coach (can't remember who). The problem (as he saw it) is that the penalties for injuring another player just aren't effective..... the fines (as large as they can be) simply aren't enough when compared to the salaries. His solution, if a player is injured during a game and the result of that injury is that the injured player can no longer play, then the player who caused the injury (and this is assuming that it wasn't a legal hit) should be forced to sit out the same amount of time as the injured player.

By: gdiafante on 3/22/12 at 10:09

And, Loner, witnesses heard a whine and/or wimper before the shot. The victim's girlfriend said he told her someone was following her and then asked them why, shortly before the phone went dead.

Sounds like there was an altercation. Be wary of Skittles, they can kill you...

...if you eat nothing else for 50 years...

By: gdiafante on 3/22/12 at 10:14

The fines do need to be larger, given the salaries, but that would never fly with the players union. Although, I think the most interesting aspect of this is that an NFL player rep is one of the ones that participated in the bounty. AND, the entire bounty system is detrimental to players...how is the union going to play this?

By: Loner on 3/22/12 at 10:16

The NFL is tackle football, not 2-hand touch....when huge, young, athletic men violently collide on purpose, down after down and the ball carrier goes down on nearly every down, we should expect injuries....and disability.

Those guys get the big bucks, but they get beat up even as they do the beating....only the place kickers seem to endure and wind up relatively unscathed...but they pull hamstrings and such...for place kickers in the NFL the permanent damage is often to their egos...they tend to be the hero or the goat....that's gotta raise hell with one's ego.

By: Mike Burch on 3/22/12 at 10:20

I'm of two minds. All murders are equally heinous, and murders inspired by racism are terrible, but I wonder how much press there would have been if the victim had been white, and the killer black?

By: brrrrk on 3/22/12 at 10:21

Loner said

"The NFL is tackle football, not 2-hand touch....when huge, young, athletic men violently collide on purpose, down after down and the ball carrier goes down on nearly every down, we should expect injuries....and disability."

The coach that I talked about above talked about that as well. He wasn't suggesting that football isn't a violent sport. What he was talking about were those hits that were clearly beyond the scope of what would be considered an appropriate hit. We've all seen them......

By: Loner on 3/22/12 at 10:23

Brrrrk suggests something akin to the "penalty box" for players who injure by way of foul...I like that idea...as long as the injured player is sidelined, the offender should also be sidelined...let the subs go in on both teams to cover the positions.

Of course, such a system could be exploited and scammed, I suppose....faked injuries just to keep a good defensive player sidelined? You know it would happen....team physicians would eventually become part of the scam? All is fair in love, war and football.

By: brrrrk on 3/22/12 at 10:28

Mike Burch said

"I'm of two minds. All murders are equally heinous, and murders inspired by racism are terrible, but I wonder how much press there would have been if the victim had been white, and the killer black?"

Given the exact same circumstances? I'd bet one thing, the killer still wouldn't be walking around with a loaded piece of evidence....

And by the way, I heard this morning that there have been as many as 75 similar cases in the state of Florida since this law has gone into effect. This was an estimated number given that in most of these cases the crime isn't investigated.... just as in this case. The only reason that this one is getting the press is because of the unique circumstances of the case.

By: Loner on 3/22/12 at 10:29

Mike, in the case you outlined, the mainstream media would not have to be prodded by the social media networks to cover the story...they would naturally home in on a case where a black neighborhood watch gunman kills an unarmed white teenager....give it time, it will happen sooner or later.

The cops would have let Zimmerman off the hook...based on his bloody nose....the internet has played a key role in bringing this all to light.

By: Loner on 3/22/12 at 10:32

Folks, it is too doggone nice out to sit here and kibbitz...I gotta fire up the big thumper & ride...it's been a pleasure...later!

By: brrrrk on 3/22/12 at 10:35

Loner said

"Of course, such a system could be exploited and scammed, I suppose....faked injuries just to keep a good defensive player sidelined?"

Not necessarily. First of all, it would have to be an illegal hit.... that would be determined by the officials. And secondly, the punishment would be handed out after the league reviews the hit and considers the effect of the resulting injury. I think it would work.....

By: gdiafante on 3/22/12 at 10:43

It would work in a perfect world, where referees are consistent with their calls. Right now, a major problem in the league is that players still don't know what constitutes an illegal hit because the calls are so erratic.

Now, what happens if you have a marginal hit on an injury-prone player? The slightest injury can keep them out for a long, long time. Why should the defensive player pay because the other player can't take a hit?

By: BenDover on 3/22/12 at 10:57

@ burch... dog bites man.

The racial aspect is the only reason we're hearing anything about this story right now. Instead of fliping it, take the racial aspect out all together. Black shoots black / white shoots white. If they were not holding press conferences screaming "racism!!" it would be a local story.

Instead it has national juice of 'racist!' and 'ggggggguuunnn!'... they never miss an opportunity to amplify those cries. Otherwise people like Loner would forget all their southern stereotypes and we could "all just get along". Can't have that.

By: yogiman on 3/22/12 at 11:13

isn't it possible the victim could be the cause of the incident, gdiafante? Or should always be considered an innocent victim?

By: yogiman on 3/22/12 at 11:19

Getting "hurt" is part of the game, BenDover, but intentional harm is another. That's like a boxer hitting his opponent on the lower part of his body [between the legs]
on purpose.

By: yogiman on 3/22/12 at 11:26

Hey, register that casino idea, BenDover. You should be able top retire on your commission after a couple of law suits.

And being a native of the Volunteer state, I'll volunteer to become your partner.

By: brrrrk on 3/22/12 at 11:28

BenDover said

"Otherwise people like Loner would forget all their southern stereotypes and we could "all just get along". Can't have that."

Oh I get it. Stereotypes based on ones skin color and ethnicity (qualities that are beyond the control of the person) are just fine and dandy (based on what I'm hearing from the right ala guys like Beck, Limbaugh, and the GOP in general), whereas southern stereotypes (which are largely based on behavior and political views... all of which are by choice) are verbotten? And by the way, guys like Jeff Foxworthy and Larry the Cable Guy have made a pretty good living exploiting Southern stereotypes and I don't hear anyone complaining about them......

By: bfra on 3/22/12 at 11:37

If Dixie Carter (for example) was a Southern stereotype, I would feel honored to be compared to her any time. May she rest in peach. What some consider Southern, is usually, just in their own prejudice minds.

By: BenDover on 3/22/12 at 11:56

My point is that the stereotypes are not the norm anymore, brrrk; and have not been for most of our lifetime. If not for the media constantly whipping the libs in New York and Cali. into a frenzy of outrage on behalf of others people might realize that most of us hold basically the same views and want the same things for our families and community.

Loading up the truck to go "shoot some n*ggers" wasn't even common or accepted in the 50's but now 60 years hence the race baiters have blacks from Michigan scared to drive through rural TN at night; like a scout for the lynching committee might spot them and call for a white hood party -- hosted by Newt or Santorum.

Even if there is a racial element to this tragedy It's ridiculous to portray it as some kind of norm.

By: brrrrk on 3/22/12 at 12:16

BenDover said

"My point is that the stereotypes are not the norm anymore, brrrk; and have not been for most of our lifetime."

Right, and every time I hear disparaging remarks about "Yankees" (I sort of notice this being one myself), it's really not a stereotype. Just someone saying something....

You really must come down out of that ivory tower once in a while and breathe some of the less rarefied air . I've got a perfect place for you to visit.... it's a little town around the Cookeville area where the locals to this day refer to part of the town as n*gger hill.

By: yogiman on 3/22/12 at 12:17

Everything's gotten to be [norm] today, BenDover, if you agree with it. But if you don't, it's abnormal. And have you ever known someone who isn't normal; especially on this site?

By: Ummm... on 3/22/12 at 12:20

BenDover said: "Even if there is a racial element to this tragedy It's ridiculous to portray it as some kind of norm."

Ben, it's also rediculous to pretend that racial violence has vanished in the South or anywhere else in this country. Unfortunately, it always seems to be Republican-controlled state legislatures in the South that enact laws like "Stand your Ground." Our own state legislature seems to have nothing better to do than embarrass us with bills like "Don't Say Gay," or "let's publish the abortion doctors' names," or "let's teach alternative creation theories along with evolution." Thankfully, the economy is getting better anyway (no thanks to them).

By: gdiafante on 3/22/12 at 12:49

Stereotypes are very much the norm, Ben. How about the stereotype that every person who receives a government check is lazy, entitlement-minded, etc.?

How about the stereotype that every wealthy person is greedy, self-absorbed, out-to-screw-everyone-else?

Not to even mention political stereotypes...yeah, they're very much the norm.

By: brrrrk on 3/22/12 at 1:24

gdiafante said

"Stereotypes are very much the norm, Ben. How about the stereotype that every person who receives a government check is lazy, entitlement-minded, etc.?

How about the stereotype that every wealthy person is greedy, self-absorbed, out-to-screw-everyone-else?

Not to even mention political stereotypes...yeah, they're very much the norm."

True, stereotypes are normal in as much as they are (as some sociologists suggest) genetic defense mechanisms that served us well thousands of years ago. The trick is in not allowing instinct and fear to override intellect.

By: BenDover on 3/22/12 at 2:13

The 'unbiased' media exaggerates them in a particular direction to try to affect liberal social change.

By: gdiafante on 3/22/12 at 2:17

Everything gets exaggerated in a 24/7 news cycle, Ben. And labeling everything as a media bias won't make it go away. As much as some don't want to admit it, race is a huge problem in this country.

By: Rasputin72 on 3/22/12 at 2:18

If this were not about a teen age boy with apparently no connection to crime in the street. (A seemingly normal teenager) I would have great empathy for Zimmerman since 70% of the crime is commited by blacks. Racial profiling for crime is pretty easy to do since everyone knows what color and how they dress commits crimes. I see a hooded black with his pants down past his crack I always give him a wide berth and assume that he is a criminal or a criminal in waiting.

In this case with the young boy, I believe that Zimmerman went out of his way to kill this boy and should be arrested,tried and convicted of manslaugter.

By: yogiman on 3/22/12 at 2:36

I know I don't have all of the details, Rasputin72, but how did Zimmerman wind up with a bruised lip? Who went at who first?

By: gdiafante on 3/22/12 at 3:17

You can go to absurdist websites and copy/paste 50 year old anti-Communist propaganda, but can't go to a news site and get basic facts about the shooting?

And you wonder why everyone thinks you're a dolt.

By: yogiman on 3/22/12 at 3:29

I'll admit, gdiafante, if I knew as much as you seem to know (or think your know) about a computer, I'd be a whiz on one.

I'll readily admit, that's one thing you obviously have more knowledge than I, but you obviously don't compare with me on knowledge of the Constitution.

So, I'll admit; I'm a dolt on computer knowledge. Now, will you admit you're a dolt on Constitution knowledge when it's so obvious when you accept someone as your president who doesn't legally qualify for that office?

By: gdiafante on 3/22/12 at 3:33

Right, yogi. You didn't even know the Constitution doesn't specify what constitutes a natural born citizen.

Personally, I don't think you're a dolt (regarding most subjects), I know it.

By: Captain Nemo on 3/22/12 at 3:59

Do you guys want me to jump on the zero. I said I would lay off the old fool if you did.

By: Captain Nemo on 3/22/12 at 4:19

Zimmerman was not a security guard as some fool suggested, he was a safe-appointed neighborhood watch gun-ho twit that should have never been near a gun, let alone carry one. The victim was armed with a bag of Skittles. I know that some people in Smith County are terrified of the candy.

Zimmerman had a history of violence;

Just a month before that, the paper reports, Zimmerman was at a bar near the University of Central Florida when a friend was arrested on suspicion of serving minors. Zimmerman became profane and pushed a law enforcement agent who tried to escort him away. He was arrested after a short struggle. That arrest had been reported previously.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-killer-had-brushes-prior-153033731.html

By: yogiman on 3/22/12 at 5:16

You're right, gdiafanti, the Constitution doesn't stipulate precisely the meaning of a natural born citizen. Common sense should give you common sense knowledge. And it has been found in several cases in the past.

Our founders weren't looking centuries into the future but common sense should tell you both parents must be citizens of the same nation.

If it has no meaning, then anyone born in the USA would automatically be legally eligible to become president even if born to a foreign mother; who could take them back to their home nation, raise them until they become 35 and they could then they could come back "home" to the USA and become president... even if they couldn't speak the language.

Damn, what was our founders thinking? Like a bunch of damn fools?

By: Loner on 3/22/12 at 7:31

Evening wrap-up:

Had a great ride on the big thumper...it was up to 81 degrees here today. Incredible.

Looks like we went right into Summer....I hope it's the real thing.

By: parnell3rd on 3/22/12 at 10:05

Yes Dargent 7, how easy it is to forget the facts, yes Benard Geotz feared for his life. How would you feel if four kids had screwdrivers, threatening your life? Would you give them your money hoping they leave you alone? Insted, they still harm you anyway? Or would you want to protect your own life. My best friend from NYC for years argued with me about Mr. Geotz shooting those 4 kids with screwdrivers. The one evening my best friend was mugged on the subway in NYC, beaten and robbed. After that he told me Mr. Goetz had every right to shot those four kids as you call them. Four punks in my book. So, hopefully you have never been put in that position. Can you judge someone? How is this similar to what happened in Florida. The circumstances were all totally different. But you want to bring up something else. Stick to the story at hand.

By: parnell3rd on 3/22/12 at 10:16

This is a sad, bad story. Why does the Black leaders only speak out when a Hispanic, White or Policeman commits a crime against Black People? How come they do not speak out against Black on Black crime? How come they are not marching in the streets everyday to stop violence against themselves?

By: yogiman on 3/22/12 at 10:58

Take that issue one step further, parnell3rd. Why doesn't black leaders speak out when a black person commits a crime?

By: parnell3rd on 3/24/12 at 6:46

I hear you Yogi. And how come when the facts are comming out that allegedly the victim attacked Mr. Zimmerman and broke his nose the facts are not important any more.
Tell me, anyone, if some one breaks your nose are you going to turn the other cheek?

By: Captain Nemo on 3/25/12 at 10:50

Poor old yogi never could understand anything. It must be his soiled diaper that keeps his brains from thinking. Breathing too much methane will do that, to an old uneducated half brains. LOL

By: parnell3rd on 3/26/12 at 8:16

How come the media is not reporting all the facts of the case? Both sides! Good and bad! It's race warefare!