Up for Debate: Reignited abortion debate, no exceptions

Thursday, August 23, 2012 at 1:34am

Given the reignited debate surrounding rape and abortion following the comments by Todd Akin, what are your opinions on exceptions for abortion in pregnancies resulting from rape or incest?

Filed under: City Voices
Tagged: Up for Debate

131 Comments on this post:

By: Captain Nemo on 8/23/12 at 3:13

Being a male I have mixed emotions about it, however not being a female I do not have the right to tell women what to do with their bodies.

If Akin had really understood what rape is and not catering to the superstitions of immature and uneducated constituents, we would not be talking about this today.

By: Captain Nemo on 8/23/12 at 3:13

Being a male I have mixed emotions about it, however not being a female I do not have the right to tell women what to do with their bodies.

If Akin had really understood what rape is and not catering to the superstitions of immature and uneducated constituents, we would not be talking about this today.

By: Captain Nemo on 8/23/12 at 3:14

Sorry about the double post.

By: Ask01 on 8/23/12 at 4:43

I believe abortion should be allowed when pregnancy is the result of non consensual sex such as rape or incest, if the life of the mother is in danger, or the fetus is determined to have exception grave defects.

If, however, prenancy results from consensual intercourse, making abortion nothing more than after the fact contraception, I cannot condone the practice.

We are constantly told we are supposed to be responsible for our actions, therefore consenting adults have the obligation to take proper precautions.

I reject any arguments of being overcome by emotion, having over indulged in intoxicants, momentary lapses of judgement, or any other excuses attempting to justify irresponsible behavior.

The law rejects those excuses for misbehavior, from vandalism to DUI, so why not in this circumstance?

Not the same? The subject is exercising personal responsibility and being accountable for your actions, no matter what the excuse, so yes, the issue is the same.

No matter how overcome by emotion, no matter how serious the brain cramp, or the amount of alcohol, you are still responsible for your actions. Period.

If two people are old enough to "do it," for recreation, not procreation, they are old enough to take responsibility for prevention.

If they don't assume responsibility at the time of conception, they must assume responsibility for the next 18 to 21 years after birth.

By: dargent7 on 8/23/12 at 5:50

Romney and Ryan got it right on this one. Has to be "exceptions", like an ultrasound shows the brain developing outside of the skull or the heart is missing two ventricles.
To force a young teen or any woman to "have the baby" no matter what is an appalling concept.
The kicker is these same, usually Republicans, then want to deny her medical care, welfare, and FoodStamps. Palin esposed this view when she came out of the backhills of Alaska and I thought she was clinically insane.
Being Pro-life is a noble concept but let's be reasonable. A rape child?
When they ask, "Where's daddy?" you have to say, "Serving a life sentence in prison...what to schedule a meeting, son?"
You cannot argue with people who's mentality is null and void.

By: dargent7 on 8/23/12 at 5:51

re: Nemo's double post...we get that you're a manly male.

By: dargent7 on 8/23/12 at 5:58

Ask01: Watch any episode of the "Maury" show.
His forte' now is DNA testing men to find out, "Who's the father?"
It's like a game show without the prizes. Half are even married and it turns out they aren't the father. Half want to be the father, the wife swears she has been 100% faithful, and he's not the father.
It's truly pathetic. Easily half the guys aren't, and Maury invites the woman to come back on the show when she contacts another crop of guys she slept with.
One woman tested 8 guys and all failed the test. They jumped for joy but she was too stupid to know how humiliating she looked.
Sex is indeed used in a majority of cases as recreation.

By: gdiafante on 8/23/12 at 6:17

I understand nemo, I'm more in favor of a woman's right to do with her body what she wants than abortion. At the same time, I don't believe life begins at conception. I believe a cellular chain reaction does not constitute life.

I think abortions should be limited to a certain time frame and once you hit that threshold (earlier than it is now), it's too late, you have the child, regardless. If the Christian right really cared about those children, they'd find a good Christian home for them instead of judging and condemning them the rest of their life (looking at you Raspy).

And I also think that if you're going to bitch and complain about the number of welfare kids while also condemning contraception and abortion, you should get your head examined.

By: dargent7 on 8/23/12 at 6:31

...but, professor, saying a "cellular chain reaction" does not constitute life, what, then, is it? What is the mechanism, the force that drives it, if not "life"?
It's not inert matter. Sperm swim upstream, search and seek out an ovum, then penetrate it.
Willfully. At that moment, called conception, it's "a life" at it's most infancy.
Life has to start somewhere, doesn't it?
Go ahead, refute that statement, gD, and I'll buy you season tickets at the Titans.

By: gdiafante on 8/23/12 at 6:47

I would refute that statement with this, Darge: Neurologically, until a distinct brainwave pattern can be detected, how can anyone say it's "alive"? Conversely, if an adult has no EEG pattern, they are considered braindead. So, if you apply that criteria to a fetus, it is braindead until about 24 - 27 weeks, when that pattern can be measured.

The only exception to this rule is yogi, who has no brainwave pattern yet somehow still walks the Earth.

By: gdiafante on 8/23/12 at 6:49

That's a narrow definition, darge. By that criteria, a spider is alive and the Orkin Man is the biggest mass murderer in the history of the world.

Except he's not, because we're not talking in generalities, we're talking about human life.

By: yogiman on 8/23/12 at 7:26

Well, gdiafare,

I'll bet you hope you'll still be breathing fresh air with a little bit of oxygen in it if you ever reach my age. If you are, perhaps you'll understand how ignorant your postings are today.

By: treehugger7 on 8/23/12 at 7:26

As a woman who was raped in her own home by an intruder, I find this debate fairly juvenile. I was fortunate enough to not become pregnant, but it certainly had nothing to do with Akin's theories. He's just a jackass. When you have had a gun held to your head and forced to do things you don't want to, adrenaline kicks in, but there isn't much you can do. I was asleep in bed, not out asking for it. Akin can take his theories and stuff them where the sun don't shine, along with anyone who might agree with him.

By: dargent7 on 8/23/12 at 7:26

Ok, since we ARE talking about human life, just how then do you expect it to start?
It has to start somewhere, and that somewhere is in a woman's body, a test tube, a petri dish....but need two life forms, a spermasoa and an ovum. No getting around that for a human being. Religious types, philosophers, lawyers, will debate life doesn't "start" until there are brain waves or a beating heart. But, the two precursors need to be there and are "alive" from the get-go. Once connected, whall-ah!
You don't think those two components are "alive"? Unless you're Dr. Frankenstein, you need viable life to beget viable life. Inert matter will never form a zygot. (except in yogi's case).
Your Terri Schaivo reference or other neurological brain death means just that you can "kill" life, once started.
Life does start at conception, but whether to continue to "process" is up to us.
Back to the original topic, abortion is a necessary right of the woman.
The great and beneficient Oz has spoken.

By: gdiafante on 8/23/12 at 7:39

I suppose you don't know the difference between a life form and a human life? Bacteria are alive, you know. So when you wipe down your kitchen, yep, mass murder.

That fungus growing in your refrigerator that you tossed out? Murder. Who are you to deprive a living thing of its right to life?

Why don't we have laws on the books to protect bacteria and fungus as we do to protect human life?

I wonder...

By: dargent7 on 8/23/12 at 7:47

You are talking parrelle universes.
Equating fungus and bacteria with human life?
The whole discussion goes to the belief that "life starts at conception". It does. Period.
Now, if you want to kill it, that's up to you. But don't hide behind, "it's not life until the heart beats, or "the brain waves start..." bullshit.
gD: I couldn't clean or operate a AK-47, AR-15, or Glock if my life depended on it.
I'm quite sure you can do either it in your sleep.
Stay within your realm of proficientcy.
(I'm in a bad mood today. Sunday was my birthday and no one even as much sent me a card).

By: yogiman on 8/23/12 at 8:00

Perhaps no one thought you had reached your stage of maturity, dargen7 and didn't want to make a joke on it.

By: bfra on 8/23/12 at 8:00

d7 - Belated Happy Birthday! Hope you have many more.

By: gdiafante on 8/23/12 at 8:06

You are talking parrelle universes.
Equating fungus and bacteria with human life?

Um...because you were comparing sperm to human life...hence the statement: I suppose you don't know the difference between a life form and a human life?.

By your statements, life wouldn't begin at conception because it already existed as a sperm so how can it begin twice?

Answer: because we're discussing when human life begins.

Happy Birthday...by the way, do you count your age from the moment of your conception? Just wondering...

By: dargent7 on 8/23/12 at 8:08

I just cannot believe we're distilling this important topic down to, "fungus, bacteria, brain waves, heart beats". That's lawyer speech holding court in a courtroom.
Sperm is alive, an ovum is alive. Once connected, it's not necessarily a "miracle", but comes pretty close.
As I've said, what we do after that fact is up to us.

By: yogiman on 8/23/12 at 8:10

gdiafarte,

There is different forms of life and we other humans think it's a form of human conception, sperm into ovum.

Unlike you, most of we humans don't give a damn about the lives of bacteria or fungus. Or even bedbugs and moles. They can die and go to hell.

By: dargent7 on 8/23/12 at 8:14

re: My birthday. I celebrate mine on Aug. 19 with President Clinton. Obama's was Aug. 4th, and Madonna's was Aug 15th.
So, I'm in great company with philanderers, sluts, and illegal aliens usurping the Oval Office.

By: slacker on 8/23/12 at 8:17

Akin is a dumb arse for even commenting on the ''A'' word.
A successful politician quickly learns not to discuss politics, religion, abortion, with the public, or reporters.
They skillfully morph all answers to questions, into a monologue on what an unqualified, and unprogressive dolt, their opponant is.
With the exception of Joe Biden this strategy always works.

By: yogiman on 8/23/12 at 8:17

Damn, I wish you hadn't asked that question. That means I'm damn near 83 years old but we unthinkers think our age begins when we're popped out of our mother's womb and start yelling for something to eat.

By: jvh2b on 8/23/12 at 8:17

8 BILLION people on this planet of quickly dwindling resources and apparenly we are worried about going extinct because women want to scrape a cluster of growing cells out of their uterus. Or the millions dying of hunger/disease/war and we talk about the sanctity of human life. What a crock.

YES there should be personal responsibility to it, and frankly those that are man/woman enough to be responsible...will be/are...and they will buckle down and love their little bundle of joy (once it becomes that anyways). But why it is condisered irresponsible if a woman knows she can't provide for a kid or even doesn't want one but can provide? Then you have a kid who isn't wanted (thats gonna be a fun 18 years!) or a kid who isn't provided for. And don't give me the bs about adoption. If we didn't have kids in the system for their entire lives then you may have a case, but guess what...it's overburnded and overrun with unwanted children.

And gd- you nailed it with the mass muder when you clean your kitchen. Same concept. Yes, darge that cluster of cells could turn into a human...if nature itself doesn't take care of it in the many ways it fails to take. So whats next? Charge mom nature with murder when the mother's body doesn't follow through turning it into a baby? But again, just because it could turn into a human doesn't mean it is a human. I definately don't agree with late/mid term abortion, becuase yes, at some point in the womb it's a baby. But for the first few weeks it's nothing more than a cluster of growing cells...like bacteria/fungi.

By: gdiafante on 8/23/12 at 8:22

Yogi, you other humans must not understand that bacteria and fungus provide an invaluable contribution to human life and our environment.

Here are some of the functions of bacteria that benefit humans: sewage treatment, the breakdown of oil spills, the production of cheese and yogurt, the recovery of gold, and are essential in the production of antibiotics.

Fungus is essential in the production of wine and beer, which, if you can't understand the importance of this, you truly are brain dead.

Think before you post, nitwit.

By: gdiafante on 8/23/12 at 8:35

Not to mention that the first life forms on Earth were...wait for it...

Bacteria

If you said "Adam and Eve", you meet the legal definition of brain dead.

By: yogiman on 8/23/12 at 8:40

You must have been promoted out of the first grade, gdiafarte. Thanks of educating me.

By: govskeptic on 8/23/12 at 8:41

Actually life begins when you realize "there's no free lunches"! Contrary
to what Charlie Rose and Chris Matthews says

By: BenDover on 8/23/12 at 8:42

I think the topic should focus on the problem of medium to late term abortion and not on the circumstance of the pregnancy.

By: yogiman on 8/23/12 at 8:45

Darn I hit that button too quick again. I meant thanks for educating me. I'm trying to be as smart as y'all think you are.

By: gdiafante on 8/23/12 at 8:48

I agree Ben. Like I said, limit them to early terms only, across the board.

By: budlight on 8/23/12 at 8:48

gdiafante on 8/23/12 at 8:06
You are talking parrelle universes.
Equating fungus and bacteria with human life?

Um...because you were comparing sperm to human life...hence the statement: I suppose you don't know the difference between a life form and a human life?.

By your statements, life wouldn't begin at conception because it already existed as a sperm so how can it begin twice?

Answer: because we're discussing when human life begins.

Happy Birthday...by the way, do you count your age from the moment of your conception? Just wondering...

People from South Korea consider their age to start at conception. At birth, they are 1 year old. Sounds like they know more than we do here in USA.

By: dargent7 on 8/23/12 at 8:48

"...but for the first few weeks it's nothing more than a cluster of growing cells..."
What? How then do you expect human life to begin? It's not life at conception?
Then, what is it?
That "growing cluster of cells" grew into you, your parents, your kids.
I think extrapolation a a commodity in short supply in the south.
After all, Tenn. beat out Mississippi by 1 point in ignorance on the ACT.

By: BenDover on 8/23/12 at 8:54

Abortion as another form of birth control is abhorrent...

...abortion as a form of birth control when there's a viable baby in there and it's just an inconvenience or because the parents want a boy instead of a girl or because the baby doesn't have the right hair color... these are things a society should be able to have some say over.

I don't think you should be able to muzzle someone who has an absolute view against abortion unless you can also muzzle people who are fine with abortion as a convenience or just another form of birth control.

By: jvh2b on 8/23/12 at 8:56

Yeah stupidity speaks for itself, which is pretty clear if you think a cluster of cells without a brain, a conciousness, a heart or anyother symblance of humanity of is a human being darge...

By: Blanketnazi2 on 8/23/12 at 8:58

treehugger, I am so sorry to hear that you went through that. Even if you had been out, you wouldn't have been "asking for it." What disturbs me is that Ryan is now saying that he supports Romney's position but only because it's a "step in the right direction."

By: BenDover on 8/23/12 at 9:01

I agree that legal early term abortion is a really unfortunate necessity of our modern lives but I'm also tolerant of people who disagree with me on that.

By: budlight on 8/23/12 at 9:01

http://realweb.ifastnet.com/stats.html

There are solid statistics on raped women getting pregnant. I'm sorry for you Treehugger that you had to go through such an ordeal. Glad you survived. Some women (and men) do not survive rape.

After reading the above referenced information (and others on the web) I'm convinced that the incidence of pregnancy caused by rape is fairly low considering the number of pregnancies that occur annually. Most people fail to consider some of the statistics this site has presented, like, was the woman on birth control, was she at an age where pregnancy was even possible, was she ovulating at the time of the rape, and many other circumstances. People who are trying to have a baby sometimes have months and months of trying. So pregancy is not always a given in any type of intercourse, including rape.

And emotions do play a role in the event, so to me if the body is in a flight or fight response, the hormones and factors necessary to get pregnant may be shut down. That combined with the fact that the rapist might even be sterile play a role.

Less than 1% of the women raped, according to statistics, become pregnant. And many of them do not abort because they are raped (based on studies). They abort because family and friends do not support them during the pregnancy.

I agree that people, men and women, should have their choices. But I do not agree that the tax dollars should pay for abortions, especially when the people are engaged in recreational sex.

D7 I'll send you some of my birthday cards. My husband, family and friends send me many. You have to send your wife and friend a card with your return address on it! LOL

By: Blanketnazi2 on 8/23/12 at 9:12

The only way tax dollars would pay for abortion is if the person was low income and had no insurance. So, don't whine when you have to pay for programs to support the child after it is born. If a person is poor, they're going to need doctor's visits during pregnancy for prenatal care and then care for the child after birth. There will need to be assistance with daycare and schooling. So don't whine about your taxes! Be happy that you are providing for the child.

By: Blanketnazi2 on 8/23/12 at 9:14

Next time they debate property tax increases you should vote YES. That money pays for our schools and services. 70% of the kids in metro schools are on the free lunch program so there is a big need. Just remember that - you can't have it both ways.

And for goodness sake - support sex ed in schools already!!!!

By: budlight on 8/23/12 at 9:26

Blanketnazi2 on 8/23/12 at 9:12
The only way tax dollars would pay for abortion is if the person was low income and had no insurance. So, don't whine when you have to pay for programs to support the child after it is born. If a person is poor, they're going to need doctor's visits during pregnancy for prenatal care and then care for the child after birth. There will need to be assistance with daycare and schooling. So don't whine about your taxes! Be happy that you are providing for the child.

I do not whine when children are receiving services. I do not think their parents should be given hand outs; but should have to work, even if it's picking up roadside debris. I also think that widows, orphans and the people who are disabled should be helped. BUT not able bodied men and women.

If my property tax REALLY went to the schools, I'd be happy. Have you seen the conditions of the schools lately? The money does not go for really cleaning them or for landscaping and maintenance these days. Teachers making more money does not necessarily equate to better educated children. It equates to more money for the teachers 100% of the time.

I support classes being taught in the schools but not agendas such as the LGBT. that is not appropriate.

By: Mike Burch on 8/23/12 at 9:28

Republicans and the Vatican now share a really cool superpower: they now know the mind of God and can infallibly decide things that were never mentioned in the Bible. Thus, they "know" that a woman's egg has a soul the moment it is fertilized, and thus they know that it is "murder" to abort a pregnancy, even though without a brain and nerve cells a fetus is incapable of thought, personality or feeling pain.

In nature, a large percentage of pregnancies are naturally aborted. Not all babies that are conceived are born. Also in nature without modern technology a high percentage of babies would die early deaths. Republicans have no answer to the riddle of why God allows so many fetuses and babies to die. They prefer to preach irrational sermons to women and tell them that it is a "sin" to abort pregnancies, and increasingly, to use contraceptives.

This is just more evidence that the GOP has lost its last few marbles.

By: Blanketnazi2 on 8/23/12 at 9:33

Teachers should receive a pay increase. Due to lack of funding they end up buying supplies out of their own pockets, not that they make that much money to begin with.

By: BenDover on 8/23/12 at 9:34

So you support on-demand late term abortions Mike?

As long as people do I don't see any problem whatsoever with some people advocating the other extreme.

By: gdiafante on 8/23/12 at 9:39

Actually, many teachers are asking the parents to buy their children's school supplies, then pool them all together for the entire class.

By: Blanketnazi2 on 8/23/12 at 9:41

Many of the parents don't have money for school supplies and rely on donations.

By: yogiman on 8/23/12 at 9:59

When you make the statement about "supporting" a child born to a poor mother, a point you should understand, Blanketnazi2, many "poor" women of today make it a job to have babies. The more they have the more welfare they get.

And who started this program? The Democratic party. Before that "giveaway" program was started specializing in the people of the Negro race, just about all black children were born into families.

The program was only for single black women. The men "left home" to get that check.

But today, I believe that "benefit" has taken in the Caucasians, too. So what percent of babies are born in single households today.

Too damn many. Most of the children don't even know who their father is.

By: yogiman on 8/23/12 at 10:06

I'm sorry to hear about your situation, treehugger. May I offer some sage advice? If you're living alone, get yourself a gun and learn how to use it. And never fire a warning shot. The bullets are too damn expensive now and they're increasing in cost because of the millions of hollow point rounds the "guvmunt" is buying. No one supposedly knows why yet.

And get yourself a good guard dog.

By: slacker on 8/23/12 at 10:29

Easily obtained free contraceptives, is one way to address this. The govt. should have free contraceptives vending machines next to those free towel wipes at Kroger's.
General hospitals could provide free (voluntary) tubal ligation.
These actions will save a lot of govt. funds now spent on unwanted children.
The monies saved, could towards free school supplies, for poor children who avoided getting whacked.