Up for Debate: Spy vs. spy

Wednesday, May 9, 2012 at 1:23am

What do you make of The New York Times report that states a suspected suicide bomber in plot to blow up U.S. plane was actually a double agent?

Filed under: City Voices
Tagged: Up for Debate

185 Comments on this post:

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 7:47

Southerners migrated into those non-Southern states, Gd....their hateful brand of Christianity infected those non-confederate states....we could have restricted entry of Southerners into the USA, if we had simply let the bigots go their own way...and sealed the borders.

By: govskeptic on 5/9/12 at 7:55

Loner: I did read the NYT article and my one sentence remark about it
doesn't say he wasn't the one who turned himself in over the plot. Stick
to your hatred of everything southern, please?

By: BenDover on 5/9/12 at 8:00

Minimum wage laws serve to cut the algae out of the ecosystem gd. Inflation had basically reached the point of making minimum wages mostly meaningless (even in rural / low cost-of-living areas) but then in some extraordinary bad timing they were increased at a time when real wage inflation became stagnate.

It provides the incentive to automate jobs and outsource our American labor via imported goods rather than employ unskilled workers. And it puts American products at a competitive disadvantage in the world market.

Then, to add insult to injury, these would-be workers end up reliant on state and local housing and food subsidies.

By: gdiafante on 5/9/12 at 8:00

So instead of spending the day at the lake with the family you've got dad out mowing his own lawn, repairing his own cars and building his own deck because of the perverse fiscal situation where every dollar saved is the same thing as a dollar fifty earned.

As someone who chooses to mow my own lawn and build my own deck or paint my own house, not everyone can (1) afford to outsource, (2) some people actually like to work around the house and are not complete lazy bums (3) the lawn maintenance industry is not the thread holding the U.S. economy together.

By: yogiman on 5/9/12 at 8:02

You should read the laws a little better, Kosh III. You might like to read something more interresting. www.web.archive.org/web/20040627142700/eastandard.net/headlines/news26060403.htm

By: Captain Nemo on 5/9/12 at 8:05

Yogi good read not

Kyle Pyle-

By: gdiafante on 5/9/12 at 8:08

So, Ben, what you want is the U.S. to be able to compete with China, who treats/pays their workers like America did during the Industrial Revolution.

I see what you mean though. If a company can pay an American $2/hour, that puts more money in their pockets. Then, other companies see that John Doe only makes $2/hour, so they only want to pay Jane $2/hour too. Pretty soon, $5/hour is considered only for the college educated.

Neat plan.

By: BenDover on 5/9/12 at 8:09

Well... nice personal anecdote there gd. But are you disputing my rationale?

I know if the kid down the street wanted $25 bucks to cut my lawn rather than $50 I'd have him out there every other week. I really don't think the 2 hour job is worth $25 an hour, though, especially when I consider that I have to earn $75 in the first place to be able to afford to pay him the $50.

So, as they say, "the rich gets richer and the poor gets poorer". And it's largely because of the perverse incentives built into our tax, immigration and labor laws.

The cure is the cause.

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 8:14

Let's review the tape:

By: govskeptic on 5/9/12 at 8:25

So far we all agree that 9/11 was just bad flying by the terrorist and the
real problem was Bush/Chaney and that Underwear bombs are bad!
Thankfully, this double agent was the one that exposed the plot, versus
carrying it out!

If you had read the NYT, Gov, you would know that this double agent was the one that exposed the plot, versus carrying it out......nobody turned him in, he willingly reported to the authorities and turned over the evidence....he fingered the guys who had trusted him...got it?

I do not hate everything Southern...I do hate faith-based bigotry and that stuff is ubiquitous in the former confederacy. The South never fully repented after the Civil War. I hate the idea that 618,000 young men died in a conflict that was never really resolved.....the states rights advocates are still calling for moral rebellion against the federal government.

By: Captain Nemo on 5/9/12 at 8:17

I am glade to hear that you don’t hate me Loner. ;-)

By: gdiafante on 5/9/12 at 8:19

You're out of touch, Ben. The kid down the street doesn't want to mow your yard. Lawn maintenance businesses are in/out in flash because they have on person doing the trimming, one driving the industrial mower, the other blowing the shavings. The kid down the road can't compete, and probably doesn't want to either.

I'll consider outsourcing when I'm physically unable to do it. Otherwise, I'm just not that lazy.

By: gdiafante on 5/9/12 at 8:22

Well, if Loner's going to relegate homophobia south of the Mason-Dixon, I'll relegate anti-Semitism to upstate NY. How's that?

Yep, ridiculous.

By: gdiafante on 5/9/12 at 8:29

Here's some info you might like, Loner. Seems the West, North, an island and Alaska are all controlled by Southerners...


By: slacker on 5/9/12 at 8:30

Double-agent Southerners.

By: slacker on 5/9/12 at 8:31

Southerners without boarders.

By: BenDover on 5/9/12 at 8:31

Gay Marriage is a civil rights issue now? gmab.

By: Captain Nemo on 5/9/12 at 8:32

gdia, Loner-

I have known lots of southern and only a small percent are as mean and thoughtless as yogi and bud. Rasputin is a jackass of a different color.

By: BenDover on 5/9/12 at 8:32

lol slack.

By: Captain Nemo on 5/9/12 at 8:33

LOL slacker

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 8:33


Homophobia is faith-based hate and that stuff is very popular in the South...they used to hate Jews in the South; but once the US recognized Israel as the Jewish State and more importantly as the official dumping grounds for unwanted US Jews, the South did a one-eighty on Jews and Judaism.....Southern Christians hope and pray that all US Jews will make aliyah to their ancestral homeland in Palestine....prophecy fulfillment, you see....then the US would be Juden Frei....and then the Rapture would be expedited etc. ....it's Southern-fried bigotry....and it is very popular these days.

By: gdiafante on 5/9/12 at 8:34

Gay Marriage is a civil rights issue now?

People have been treating it as such for a while now...where have you been?

By: Captain Nemo on 5/9/12 at 8:35

The Holy Civil War SUCKS!!

By: yogiman on 5/9/12 at 8:37

I believe you'll find more "damn" Yankees in the South than you'll find dumb Southerners in the North, gdiafante.

I'm sure glad Loner ain't one of them damn Yankees. He got suckered up as a child and actually believes he's living in the best part of the country today.

By: BenDover on 5/9/12 at 8:38

Too funny...


By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 8:40

No break for you,Ben....same-sex marriage is a civil right...a human right...as such, it should trump any "states rights".

Marriage is a civil contract. Civil contracts that are meant to be exclusive of certain classes of people - like the old Southern land covenants that barred land and home sales to Negroes - were found to be unconstitutional.

Same goes for civil contracts that exclude people based upon their gender, age and national origin. Civil contracts must conform to the law of the land.

Excluding same sex couples from engaging in a civil contract, like marriage, is a clear violation of the law, IMO.

By: BenDover on 5/9/12 at 8:44

I don't know loner. It would seem that that majority of people in this country consider it a perversion and don't want to see that kind of lifestyle choice championed by society.

Did you say they shot down civil unions? That's unusual. Most of the people I know who are against gay marriage have no problem with civil unions.

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 8:50

All marriages are civil unions...they are secular, civil contracts...the BS that goes on in the churches, temples or whatever has zero significance in the law...the marriage license is a secular document, not sacred scripture.....it's been that way for a long time...some are slow to grasp the concept.

By: gdiafante on 5/9/12 at 8:50



It seems that like politics, the country is divided.

By: Rasputin72 on 5/9/12 at 8:52

Captain Nemo........You have done a great job of pointing anomalies in history. I too am proud of those anomalies. I am at odds however with people like you just as you are at odds with people like me.

By the way,as I have said before you guys are populating the country at an ever escalating pace. I think there is enough of you guys to pretty much control any national election. The only chance we have is in the Congressional Districts and in the Senate.

I am just glad that as I grew up and started my career that people like you were seen and not heard. I think I am old enough to have enjoyed the best that this country has ever offered

By the way would it be impertinent to ask if you were a shut in or just a person with class envy?

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 8:54

So, we have morality zealots defending the meaning of the word "marriage"..it's an argument in semantics...and the language hub-bub has reached ridiculous levels of mass hysteria....constitutional amendments to define ancient words...this is ludicrous....the theocrats need to be rounded up and shipped to the Holy Land....One Way, baby....let them expedite Armageddon....without US taxpayer assistance.

By: BenDover on 5/9/12 at 8:56

Well I support gay marriage too, gd, but I'm not going to impose it on North Carolina if they don't want it.

By: gdiafante on 5/9/12 at 8:58

I am just glad that as I grew up and started my career that people like you were seen and not heard.

If only the same were true of you...Your rhetoric is too comical to be serious. And if it is, that's incredibly pathetic.

By: gdiafante on 5/9/12 at 9:00

I agree Ben, but I think that the country is moving towards it, not away from it.

By: BenDover on 5/9/12 at 9:08

That's a good thing, I think, gd.

The fact is, though, that we really don't know how these social and cultural shifts will affect our society. The society we have grew, persisted and thrived with the rules it had; and owing some homage to that fact is important, I think. But I also have compassion for people who for whatever reason have a different set of inclinations and natural desires that don't seem in any obvious way harmful to society.

Time will tell; but I think the best arbiter of this is the population at large rather than some activist judge. I hope people's hearts will open to it as time goes on and I think the culture will ultimately absorb this evolution as it has many others in the past.

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 9:11

Yep, if North Carolina wants to be a Tea-bag addled theocracy and thereby deprive Americans of their human and civil rights, then Ben Dover is OK with that....he is a statist...myself, I prefer to defend the rights of the individual when the state oppresses a whole class of its citizens in this manner.

Ben supports state-level governmental supremacy.... I support We, the People....not tyrants cloaked in religious trappings.

Ben likes a loose confederation of states model...I like the indivisible, singular, united nation model....I actually believe in the words in the Pledge of Allegiance, others simply mouth the words....especially in the Old Confederacy.

Again, the Civil War should have settled the "states rights versus human rights" issue.....all that suffering and the matter remains unsettled.....what a tragedy.

By: gdiafante on 5/9/12 at 9:19

I actually believe in the words in the Pledge of Allegiance

Except that "under God" stuff...

Yeah, I went there.

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 9:26

Amen, Gd.....that "under God" line was inserted into the text by the Knights of Columbus, during the McCarthy witch-hunt era...the pledge of allegiance was thereby transformed into a pledge of faith in the belief that a supernatural, omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent and male "god" exists.... and that He gives a shit about our political boundaries....I recite the original pledge..the one that was designed to unite us...not the updated version that was designed to divide us.

By: BenDover on 5/9/12 at 9:26

A lot of people hitch their caboose to this issue because of their disdain for Christianity though and that's an unfortunate development. The anti-religion zealots are quick to use the issue to try to drive a wedge between homosexuals and the church when any reasonable interpretation of the scriptures does not elevate the behavior over any other failing of our human race.

Jesus never said one word about it that I can discern. Paul brings it up at the end of Romans 1 but then immediately follows up in Romans 2 that we are not to judge. If there was an act that Jesus had a problem with it would be divorce, as he had much to say about that problem. Being divorced myself, who am I to judge a man who acts on an inclination of love for another man? We can each take that up with a loving and forgiving God, as I see it.

Jesus also had a big problem with religious hypocrisy... specifically those in the church who piously demanded adherence to the Mosaic Law and lost sight of the thrust of these rules of Love of God and Love of our Neighbors.

There are some who get it wrong but in my experience it is the minority of people of faith who forget these teachings of Christ. The anti-religious New Atheists who hijack the gay rights cause have no problem polarizing society on the issue, though, in hopes of advancing their cause and burning down villages of faith.

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 9:30

The revised Southern Pledge of Allegiance:
I pledge allegiance to....God....period.

The one indivisible nation stuff is utter hogwash for those keeping the faith with old Jeff Davis et al.

By: BenDover on 5/9/12 at 9:33

"I prefer to defend the rights of the individual when the state oppresses a whole class of its citizens in this manner."

What about the class of citizens who support multiple wives for a husband, loner? Do you support the rights of the individual over a state oppressing a whole class of people stupid enough to want more than one wife?

By: jvh2b on 5/9/12 at 9:34

I'm with ya on your last post Ben.

Wasn't is Ghandi or someone similar who said something along the lones of, I like your Chist, but Christians act nothing like him..

By: Mike Burch on 5/9/12 at 9:36


Do people overseas hate Americans, or do they hate the our government's wild injustices, military adventures and covert operations in areas of the world we don't understand, and where we don't belong?

A good book to read is "Children of the Jihad." It was written by a young Jewish-American man who traveled throughout the Middle East, asking young Muslims what they really think. He even met with members of terrorist organizations. The young people he talked to, for the most part, said that they don't hate Americans or Jews. They do, however, strongly oppose the racist injustices of the governments of the US and Israel. Both nations discriminate against Palestinians in vastly unjust ways, which has been a major factor in 9-11 and the subsequent wars.

Osama bin Laden understands the real issues, as in his directives to his chief commanders in the field, he told them to focus on the Palestinians rather than local issues.

The problem is not that people hate us, but that they hate our government's injustices and its unholy alliance with the racist, fascist leaders of Israel, who will sacrifice any hope of peace for Americans in order to allow Jewish robber barons to keep stealing land and water from Palestinians, who are running out of both.

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 9:39

Doctor Dover wrote: "The anti-religious New Atheists who hijack the gay rights cause have no problem polarizing society on the issue, though, in hopes of advancing their cause and burning down villages of faith."

I got my torch, Ben....I'm coming down there, to advance my cause...you wrote: "Anti-religious New Atheists"...you mean the FAGWAR gang?

(FAGWAR = Forest Adoring Global Warmist Atheist Religion)

We got our Djembe drums, our native American flutes, our campfires and our peace pipes....can't we all just get a bong....think Kum-Ba_Yah.

By: dargent7 on 5/9/12 at 9:39

Are we going to debate whether America is a Christian Nation, again?
There's more churchs than Shell gas stations on every corner around here.
So, the south is, "just pretending" to be Christian?
What horseshit.

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 9:47

Ben asked a couple of rhetoricals: "What about the class of citizens who support multiple wives for a husband, loner? Do you support the rights of the individual over a state oppressing a whole class of people stupid enough to want more than one wife?"

Actually, I do support the idea that the civil marriage contract should not be limited by gender or number...the US ban on multiple marriage partners resulted from a wave of Mormonophobia that swept over this nation when the Utah territory applied for membership in the union...it was a hate & fear based piece of legislation...as is the case in NC and the other states that have banned same-sex marriages.

A lot of the support for banning same-sex marriage is coming from employers and insurance companies that do not want to see more benefits going to workers and their spouses...cuts into the profit margins.

By: gdiafante on 5/9/12 at 9:51

Christianity is the predominant religion in this country, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a Christian nation.

Christianity says to turn the other cheek...love your enemy...not bomb the hell out of them.

By: gdiafante on 5/9/12 at 9:52

So, the south is, "just pretending" to be Christian?

You've never met a Southern Baptist, huh?

By: BenDover on 5/9/12 at 9:53

What if the populations of East Tennessee and Appalachia wanted to codify their long-standing tradition of sleeping with siblings, loner?

"Daddy, Jolene and Me is gettin' married... and she's a virgin"

"No you ain't, Bubba... you ain't marryin' nobody who ain't good enough for her own kin".

But in order to shake all the negative stereotypes and have their brother/sister love recognized by society shouldn't that be allowed? As long as one or the other were sterilized and couldn't produce offspring what harm is it to society, Loner?

This is arguably a more oppressed minority than homosexuals. Plus you've got to go back to the Old Testament in Leviticus to find rules against that one.

By: Loner on 5/9/12 at 10:10

If John Travolta wants to marry several male masseurs, for example, then dammit, he ought to be able to do so, IMO.

If Justice Kagan wants to marry a couple of young co-eds, for example, she ought to be able to exercise that option.

Same-sex marriage is not fundamentally evil in and of itself.

Polygamy itself is not inherently evil. Polyandrous relationships are not inherently evil.

Realistically, Spousal Benefits would have to be pro-rated on the number of spouses...each getting a fraction of what a single wife or husband would be entitled to....this is all doable....I support the civil rights of polyamorous Americans.

We must remember that "Marriage" is a culturally defined thing.

Culture is the learned, shared system of extra-somatic adaptations to an environment...the many diverse earthly environments have resulted in the invention of several differing human cultures...there is no single one-sized-fits-all cultural template for the entire species...but like it or not they are working on it.

A secular and democratic republic like ours should be open to expanding our cultural horizons, not limiting them, IMO.

By: brrrrk on 5/9/12 at 10:25

"So I’ll take a lot of credit for the fact that this industry’s come back." - Mitt Romney

Mitt Romney not only saved the auto industry, but he also discovered the cure for polio, painted the Sistine Chapel, and was the first man on the moon! What a guy!!!