Up for Debate: One for, one against gay marriage

Thursday, May 10, 2012 at 2:00am

What do you think of President Obama supporting gay marriage at the same time North Carolina amends constitution against it?

Filed under: City Voices

107 Comments on this post:

By: dargent7 on 5/10/12 at 8:28

My prediction: The whole "gay marriage" thing won't take hold in America.
Give them their human rights, live together, no discrimination, but stop short of a legal marriage.
And I'm as liberal as it gets. I believe trees have rights.

By: BenDover on 5/10/12 at 8:30

It would seem you fall in to the 2nd category of pious law over love, yucchhii... have you also divorced? Does your church shun and condemn people who have been divorced?

By: BigPapa on 5/10/12 at 8:30

I immediately look past the sillyness of religion and try to look at what really motivates things, money.
I figured spousal benefits would be one issue. But that's really about it.

By: slacker on 5/10/12 at 8:36

Visit: Slacker's Hookup Hotel INC.
Open 24/7. No questions asked. Extra clean-up fee for livestock.
What happens at Slacker's, stays at Slacker's.
We'll leave a light on for you.

By: gdiafante on 5/10/12 at 8:37

Slacker, you had yogi at "livestock".

By: BenDover on 5/10/12 at 8:40

It has to do with the human desire to be accepted for who you are big papa. We do know that a different cultural norm got us to where we are in society today. What none of us know is how a new norm will affect society over the long term.

We can look to Western Europe where banishment of the religious traditions in society is almost complete and moral relativism reigns supreme... homosexuality on par with regular relationships and ideas of traditional marriage being meaningless. I think the birth rate of indigenous Europeans is about 1.1 children per couple now. When we combine that with the failed liberal policies of unchecked multi-culturalism we see Islam washing over Western Europe and out breeding the indigenous population by about 4 to 1. Islam is socially, culturally and politically inconsistent with Western Liberty and Values.

This is a tangible result of not defending the culture; and society of believing it can out-reason its experience.

For this reason I'm not to quick to dismiss outright the dated notions of our religious traditions.

By: gdiafante on 5/10/12 at 8:46

I'd prefer a society where religious nuts aren't defining the culture...and that includes Christianity and Islam.

By: BenDover on 5/10/12 at 8:48

I say dance with the one who brung ya, gd.

By: BenDover on 5/10/12 at 8:51

Have you read C.S. Lewis Abolition of Man yet?

By: dargent7 on 5/10/12 at 8:52

BenD.: Could you please translate your post @ 9:40am into Arabic.
Because I have no f*** idea what you're talking about.

By: BigPapa on 5/10/12 at 8:52

Don't we here in the USA see ourselves as the children of the Enlightenment? Aren't we the nation that expands those ideals all of society? We take the best of W.European ideas and push them forward without the heavy anchor of European class systems and history?
We're the petri dish of freedom. Some times things run a muck, but that's certainly a chance worth taking. Being accepted for who you are and given the same benefits of society as the guy that works the same job, and lives in the same neighborhood is what it's all about.

Ok off my soapbox..

By: BenDover on 5/10/12 at 8:57

I transposed two words in this part that made it confusing d'arge. shb 'of society'

"This is a tangible result of not defending the culture; and of society believing it can out-reason its experience. "

The rest of it reads pretty clearly I think.

By: BenDover on 5/10/12 at 9:02

I agree Big Papa but I've been wrong enough times in my life that I don't suppose my opinion on the matter to be better than the opinions of the people of North Carolina.

I can make the case pretty clearly and I will continue to do so but I don't think it's something that should be forced on society.

By: slacker on 5/10/12 at 9:13

Ben, the Secularists, teaching a politically correct agenda, are re-establishing the culture in the U.S.A. This is happening in grade school, through college. Been happening since the early 70's. You know that Ben, they have won, and didn't fire a shot.

By: Loner on 5/10/12 at 9:14

Ben, some things need to be "forced" onto society, or so it seems....Jim Crow would be alive and well today, if he were not forced out by the Civil Rights Act.....free white men would still have the exclusive right to vote, if things were left as they were....tolerance is not all that natural.....most people don't want to take their unpalatable medicine...it's human nature.

By: Loner on 5/10/12 at 9:20

"Secular governance" is a good thing, not a bad thing.....governance by way of Holy Scripture and Divine Revelation has been tried and it has failed.

A "secular education" is also a good thing,not a bad thing. Religious education is founded upon dogma and belief....a secular education is based upon logic, reason, discovery, critical thinking and healthy skepticism.

By: BigPapa on 5/10/12 at 9:28

The Right is missing out on a great chance to co-opt a nice voting block.

You let gays marry, adopt children, you wont find anyone more suited for fiscal conservatives candidates. Gay folks generally make a lot of coin, let them have kids and move the burbs and there ya go..

By: brrrrk on 5/10/12 at 9:28

BenDover said

"Well... we have brrrrk and loner on record yesterday supporting sibling sex as long as they use protection and don't spawn a retard."

Maybe so, but at least I don't hide my religious views behind some social/cultural mumbo-jumbo excuse.

It also seems to me that the long standing traditional political right's views on individual rights have been usurped (that ones just for you yogi) by the views of the fundamentalist religious rights views.....

By: slacker on 5/10/12 at 9:41

Loner, the Secularists are becoming what they were against. Their philosophy has morphed into a religion. You have to walk on egg shells around those people. They're constantly offended by something, they mock anyone that disagrees with them.

By: Loner on 5/10/12 at 9:43

I believe that the Founders felt that religious dogma should remain in the houses of worship; it should not invade the House of Representatives....but we have strayed far from that ideal.....the US is sliding into theocracy at an ever-increasing rate.....Bush's "faith-based Initiative" is alive and well....and growing fatter and more invasive....Obama should have pulled the power cord on that office on day one....he increased its power....hope & change my @ss.

Here's a snippet:

"For fiscal year 2005, more than $2.2 billion in competitive social service grants were awarded to faith-based organizations. Between fiscal years 2003 and 2005, the total dollar amount of all grants awarded to FBOs increased by 21 percent (GAO 2006:43[3]). The majority of these grants were distributed through state agencies to local organizations in the form of formula grants (GAO 2006:17[3])."

"According to ABC News, the office (under President Obama) would seek "to expand the role of this office as it relates to policy issues where religious and local leaders can be effective.""

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_House_Office_of_Faith-Based_and_Neighborhood_Partnerships

By: Loner on 5/10/12 at 9:52

Slack, some non-believers like to mock the believers...and vice versa. So far, nobody is shooting at their perceived enemy on this issue, here in the USA....Holy War may come later.

The non-believers do not have any political clout...not a single admitted atheist in the US federal government.....there is no lobby for secularists......they have no militia or media networks.....any fear of them is unwarranted.

By: Loner on 5/10/12 at 9:52

Slack, some non-believers like to mock the believers...and vice versa. So far, nobody is shooting at their perceived enemy on this issue, here in the USA....Holy War may come later.

The non-believers do not have any political clout...not a single admitted atheist in the US federal government.....there is no lobby for secularists......they have no militia or media networks.....any fear of them is unwarranted.

By: Loner on 5/10/12 at 9:53

What's with these double posts lately?

By: brrrrk on 5/10/12 at 9:56

Loner said

"I believe that the Founders felt that religious dogma should remain in the houses of worship"

If you read the writings of our Founders (in particular the letters of Jefferson, Adams, and Madison) you would see that the one intention of the first amendment was to make sure that the government could not endorse any one religion, i.e. create a state religion. They all believed in religious tolerance but at the same time understood that if any one religion would gain a significant foothold among the population either through sheer numbers or through the actions of corrupted government by faith (which is what I believe has happened); that that one religion would eventually oppress all other faiths.

By: BenDover on 5/10/12 at 9:57

To dismiss the whole of our religious traditions because you want to redefine right and wrong to suit yourself is to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I'll restate; the fact is that none of us know what will be the result of abandoning this important piece of our society and culture [religion].

I personally think that it's not biblically inconsistent to love and respect a gay man who chooses to follow his natural inclinations toward another man even though the bible says it's wrong. I do things every day that are condemned by the bible... and since Jesus added the whole "you think it you've done it" rule, as I see it, I'm really screwed. All I can do is beg for mercy and thankfully receive the Peace promised in doing so.

So who am I to judge?

That's not to say that ostracizing gays may not been very important to the survival and advancement of our society; and we do not really know how making it a simple lifestyle choice in today's culture will ultimately manifest. I hope positively; but you don't know any more than I do.

By: Loner on 5/10/12 at 10:02

Brrrrk, the Founders did not believe in endorsing any particular faith...today, the federal government is endorsing all the faiths...they are all eligible for grants from the Office of Faith-Based Initiatives.....I don't think that this is what the Founders had in mind......I think that they believed in secular governance, not faith-based governance.

By: brrrrk on 5/10/12 at 10:10

Loner said

"The non-believers do not have any political clout...not a single admitted atheist in the US federal government.....there is no lobby for secularists......they have no militia or media networks.....any fear of them is unwarranted."

Exactly! When was the last time that Statuary Hall in the Capitol was given over to any event having to do with atheism, as it was recently handed over to a bunch of religious right zealots (one of which STILL believes that HIV is God's punishment to gays) for some bogus prayer event? Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Hamilton.... they're all spinning in their graves.

http://www.au.org/blogs/wall-of-separation/capitol-circus-religious-right-leaders-plan-dc-prayer-rally-for-evil

By: slacker on 5/10/12 at 10:18

I was just saying IMO, the non-believers will outnumber the believers in another generation. I'll be coming back as a victim, and on the dole, in my next reincarnation.
Much easier, free stuff, life is good.

By: brrrrk on 5/10/12 at 10:22

BenDover said

"To dismiss the whole of our religious traditions because you want to redefine right and wrong to suit yourself is to throw the baby out with the bathwater."

Which religious traditions are you talking about? The problem is that the religious right cherry picks the bible so as to support the things that they currently believe in. Either you buy into it or you don't.

I think it was David Hume who said something like..... If we assume that any one religion is wrong and that all religions are essentially the interpretation of God's word by man, then it follows logically that all religions must be wrong.

By: brrrrk on 5/10/12 at 10:30

And for what it's worth, the only religious group in this country that I think at least makes a real attempt to "walk the walk " is the Amish. They choose to live the way they do, but at the same time believe that it's their decision and that they should not force their views upon anyone else.

By: slacker on 5/10/12 at 10:37

brrrrk, whats the Amish view on gay marriage?

By: brrrrk on 5/10/12 at 10:43

slacker said

"brrrrk, whats the Amish view on gay marriage?"

As a group, I would suppose that their against it. But you missed my point, it has nothing to do with what they think they should do or should not do in their own personal lives.... it's about the fact that they don't believe that have to right to inflict those views onto others.

By: Loner on 5/10/12 at 11:09

You know what the Amish say...love and marriage go together, like a horse and carriage.

But, did you know that Amish women do have their sexual fantasies?

Yeah, two Mennonite. ( 2 men a night ).....heard that one down in Amish country.

By: Mike Burch on 5/10/12 at 11:12

Jesus never said a word about homosexuality, so persecuting gays did not seem to be high on his agenda. He also said that the prostitutes would enter the kingdom of heaven before the self-righteous, and he didn't exclude gay prostitutes ... so perhaps the GOP should can its hypocritical condemnation of other people's sexuality, since we know what the fat cats are doing themselves. When there are Christian conventions, the hotel porn rentals go up, not down.

By: yogiman on 5/10/12 at 11:13

Sorry, Loner,

I thought you could understand simple English. but illegal is illegal and
Barry Soetoro in that office illegally.

Is he the only one that knows that fact besides me?

By: slacker on 5/10/12 at 11:15

brrrrk, I did get your point. Not trying to pick an argument, or mock the Amish, I respect them. They do use their faith to exempt themselves from certain things in this country. If they shun, or expel a member for their sexuality they''ll catch the same flak as other religious groups. But you're right, I don't believe they proselytize. They should get a tax break for that.

By: slacker on 5/10/12 at 11:18

Loner, Frank Sinatra.... Amish, who knew?

By: slacker on 5/10/12 at 11:27

Question: Whatta you call an Amish guy with his hand up a horses butt?
Answer: A mechanic

By: Loner on 5/10/12 at 11:27

Jesus is reputed to have said that sparing the rod spoils the child....should we use a rod on our children?

Jesus cursed a tree for not having fruit....he cast out demons...spoke with the devil....or so they say.... Jesus claimed that he came here to set brother against brother.....he also encouraged tithing.

By: Loner on 5/10/12 at 11:32

LOL, Slack.....horse-balls are power-plant emissions....high in particulates.

By: Loner on 5/10/12 at 11:37

I gotta run...but, before I go, I found this image of an Amish Baby Doll Teddy....had to share it:

http://www.cheapbuysalenow.com/images_products/Allure-Leather-Leather-Harness-Teddy-One-Size-Black.jpg

These things are hot-sellers down in Amish country...I take a dozen or so down to my camp every summer...in Amish country...I barter them for Amish grown produce etc.

Later!

By: BigPapa on 5/10/12 at 12:34

All the comments above just bolster the case: there is no reason to cite other than biblical to deny gay people to right to marry.

"just because we've never done it" is not a good reason.

By: gdiafante on 5/10/12 at 1:35

I blame Ellen DeGeneres and Laura Dern.

By: gdiafante on 5/10/12 at 1:59

Hello...is there anybody out there...

By: brrrrk on 5/10/12 at 2:10

BigPapa said

"All the comments above just bolster the case: there is no reason to cite other than biblical to deny gay people to right to marry.

"just because we've never done it" is not a good reason."

How about because ALL individuals have rights and we're not a Theocracy..... yet?

By: slacker on 5/10/12 at 2:33

I've made a decision. Next tuesday everyone in this country must marry a gay person.
-Joe Biden

By: gdiafante on 5/10/12 at 2:35

Cool, I'm marrying a lesbian.

By: slacker on 5/10/12 at 2:35

Also Puerto Rico
-Joe

By: slacker on 5/10/12 at 2:43

Me... I'll be going the polygamy route. Scanning a polygamy dating site right now.
Keep one at home, get the others employed at ''Hooter's''
Its the American way, nothing in the bible against it.
Vote Mitt

By: brrrrk on 5/10/12 at 2:49

slacker said

"Me... I'll be going the polygamy route. Scanning a polygamy dating site right now.
Keep one at home, get the others employed at ''Hooter's''
Its the American way, nothing in the bible against it.
Vote Mitt"

LOL.... Seriously though, anyone who would want more than one wife is CRAZY!! Really, isn't one a "pain in the ass" enough? :-)